nov 8th
i have been following the controversy over the uk stamp with hindus worshipping jesus which they simply refused to withdraw.
now take a look at this story from the discovery channel: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041220/boyjesus.html
i am amused to see discovery waffle about the shroud of turin, which has been authoritatively (by the vatican) judged to be a medieval fake. i guess they dont want to piss off the true believers too much.
i personally don't believe jesus existed at all, i think he's a mythical figure made up by paul (earlier saul, a criminal), a very clever man indeed. i personally also don't have any problems with mythical demigods, some of the best are mythical. but i do have a problem with the christist sleight-of-hand that implies that their mythology is history. it's not, christist mythology is mythology. (actually, they should be called paulists and not christists, because that's what they are, followers of paul).
but let us be charitable for a moment and indulge christist fantasy. so if jesus did exist, what is he likely to have looked like? the blond 'Aryan' look (picture 1) or the true arab look (picture 2)?
much more likely, picture 2, "dark, coarse, vacant-eyed, jewish". he would have looked like other jews and arabs around him, for after all, he was a jew/arab/semitic type and also an artisan-born, hounded religious extremist, not a well-manicured and well-coiffed aristocrat.
in general jesus wouldn't look, for instance, like an eskimo, or a blond, blue-eyed viking, nor like an upper-class, refined, educated person.
the perfect riposte to the british stamp would be for india post to bring out a christmas stamp with picture 2 (coarse, vacant) as the image. why, it is a picture of jesus from the discovery channel, just like you guys found a mughal painting supposedly "hanging in a mumbai museum". which mumbai museum, where? nobody knows. well, i am giving you the source, discovery channel, a reputable entity.
another possibility would be to have the robert mapplethorpe exhibit, "piss christ", with a crucifix upended in a beaker or urine, as the image on a christmas postage stamp from india post. why, this image was shown at an exhibition at a reputable american museum recently. got to be liberal, you know, give the opportunity to gay people too to express their ideas about jesus.
this is the sort of response christists would understand. just as they are scared of mohammedan knives and bullets, and the yanks are scared of chinese brickbats about human rights, an in-your-face, rude response would wake them up.
but of course natwar-types in india (beholden to lots of foreign cash) would never do this. it takes cojones.
24 comments:
Royal Mail apologizes abd withdraws stamp with Hindu images
http://headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13979080
I, being a Christian dont take offense to showing Christ as a Middle East Arab or Jew. In fact, I am dead against showing him as blond and blue-eyed.
As for the non-existence of Jesus: Saul was a Jew who persecuted Christians and his persecution of Christians is well documented. So, your theory is baseless.
And I dont think any reasonable Christian will argue about the authenticity of the shroud. It has been proven that this is not "the" shroud (dont start about not being able to find reasonable Chrisitians, spare that for the Muslims).
Finally, reading of the Gospels or for that matter, any of Paul's Epistles with an open mind will show that none of it was based on human imagination. If Christ's image depends on the current living style of Christians (or their arrogance or the conversion agenda of Protestant chruches or...), how about doing the same with Hindu fanatics too?
If Christ's image depends on the current living style of Christians (or their arrogance or the conversion agenda of Protestant chruches or...), how about doing the same with Hindu fanatics too?
Anon,
If the Christists and Islamists stop thier non-sense the Hindu "fanatics" will stop theirs I am sure! The "fanaticism" is a consequence (the effect) from the cause of centuries of abuse from these exclusivist, invading and intrusive ideoligies! When freedom is lost then even the timid will have to resort to what you term as "fundamentalism" -- it is a matter of their survival.
If you are objective yourself, you will see that the "fundamentalist" actions of some Hindus are more a necessity out of frustration than out of choice. When Muslim and Chistian violence and hate mongering are rationalized as expressions of frustration or love of God, why not accept Hindu frustrations as well? Destroy and/or reform the Christists and the Islamists the "fundamentalism" among Hindus will disappear.
Anonymous 2 is right.
Muslims burn down everything whereas christians steal,distort, spin tall tales very santimoniously!
anonymous no 1, you churchians are a tad worse!
ShivaShiva....,did not notice there were 3 anon(s).The one right above my comment is right.
correction--"sanctimoniously"
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1292598&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
The "cause and effect theory" is getting to be a little old. Using the cause and effect theory, one can justify slavery, justify casteism, justify the current religious right backlash in the US etc. With the "stamp" issue, people (majority - read whites) in the UK have already seen the "Santhana Dharma" in action. Check the blogs out - they now equate the Hindu Forum with the Muslim Council of UK.
brits or christists or whites or indian secularists CANNOT be the judge and jury!!
Nervousness of certain sections of people belonging to certain communities (allegedly,allegedly...)is so pathetically patent!
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1292598&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
The "cause and effect theory" is getting to be a little old. Using the cause and effect theory, one can justify slavery, justify casteism, justify the current religious right backlash in the US etc. With the "stamp" issue, people (majority - read whites) in the UK have already seen the "Santhana Dharma" in action. Check the blogs out - they now equate the Hindu Forum with the Muslim Council of UK.
Anon,
Look who is talking! You so eloquently wax the same old cliches such as caste! How many morons can see the distinction between caste and casteism -- this despite beating this dead horse to death! You will only believe what you want to believe -- often that is because you are guided by your own prejudices (often religious or caste hatred, indoctrination by the Christists, Islamists, commies or aetheists!)
The "cause and effect" is an old ploy by the Islamists and Christists where they justify their every action of violence and destruction as frustraiton of their youth! Look how France is buring -- all by Islamists! These organized religious morons deal with every reaction to their atrocities by equating (as you have pointed out) the victims with the perpetrators. The media is a very willing partner in this charade!
Please don't dish out garbage as valid information and links.
Simply ask yourself this question:
When did this so called "fundamentalism" of Hindus came about to the extent of being ridiculed as "fundamentalism"?
The answer:
In the 90s stupid! The exodus of the Pandits from the valley, the deafening silence of the so called "media", the inaction and apathy by the politicains, the continued atrocities by the commie/aetheist/mullah/christist nexus, the lost religious freedom (read managing thier own religious institutions and affairs), the gifiting away of temple wealth to Christists and Islamists, the indifference of the "world community" (whether in Bangla Desh, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, UK, USA) to Hindu travails! Kerala is a classic example of how the minority controls the majority!
Now why should not the Hindus organize themselves to win back their freedom from these mauraders (orgnized religions, unscroupulous politicians and commercial interests) -- all pointing at the Hindus (and thier "caste" system) as the common enemy to mankind!
Look at the Muslim world and see how "advanced" they are, look at the non-white Christian countries to see how they are faring! So please spare us this cock-and-bull about problems with Hindus. Even a Muslim organization in Mumbai honestly admitted that India is secular and pluralistic because of the Hindus!
The real causes of the problems in India are:
1. Organized religion
2. Dirty politics which prefers political expediency over nation
3. Shameless commercial interests (often owned by political groups & not socially conscious corporates)
4. A completely divided society who place thier own personal affiliations and biases over national interest.
If these are cleaned up India will be one of the greatest countries on earth! Anyone who can bell the cat?!?
Anonymous right above,
"Even a muslim organization......because of the Hindus"
Let us not fall for the treacherous compliments,conciliatory comments and supplicatory noises,which are in the offing.Remember the Crow and fox story!
We are not beggars ;never were we.We are the victims;we always were.Exorcise gandhian silly maudlin ghost.
Darkstorm,
I am the anon who is "OK" with the Middle Eastern face for Christ. I dindt write any of the rest.
I dindt exactly understand your post. Is the burning of JOan of Arc or the non-acceptance of Gallileo's theories or the paedophillia among Catholic priests supported by the Bible? Or are you saying that no Christian follows what Christ said? I agree to the latter.
As for me spewing fire, where exactly?? I guess you are blinded to the extent that as soon as a Christian posts something, you have to dub it as calumby against the Hindus... Glad that none of the Hindus I know personally (and I know a lot) are like you.
Islamist jehadis and Christian terrorists are more venemous than shit-headed marxists in India. These three are well organized and experts in Anti-indian activites. Yes these are more dangerous than even the ISI
Galileos theories or burning Joan of Arc as a witch (LMAO at this, come on, she was a war hero, saved France, and you guys burnt her..??) are just examples to show you that you are as dogmatic as you accuse us of being.
DarkStorm the pseudo-historian, why don't you find out the prevailing theory in Europe in astronomy at the time of Galileo. Then find out what proof Galileo offered for his heliocentric theory. Then find out why many learned astronomers of his (Galileo's) time opposed his theory. Then you can begin to understand Galileo's problem. Turning to Rajeev's favorite encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc ,how do you explain that Joan of Arc is a Saint in the Catholic Church? Where did you read that she was convicted as a witch? "....trial for heresy was political. The duke of Bedford claimed the throne of France for his nephew Henry VI. She was responsible for his rival's coronation. Discrediting her was an attempt to discredit her king. Legal proceedings commenced on 9 January 1431, at Rouen, the seat of the English occupation government. The procedure was irregular on a number of points."
Know what, I have read the Bible, and the book of Psalms. Do they tell you to indulge in bribery , extortion and coercion to increase your followers. I too have Christian friends. I had quite some respect for Christianity, but not now. See, I am not the kind of image of a Hindu you portray, someone believing in casteism, someone who wears saffron, carries trishuls and goes around killing so-called minorities. But I dont accept your slander against my faith, it does not matter how much I believe in my faith. I did not have any option to select a religion when I was born. So now that I am here, I am very much proud of it.
What "slander" - that Casteism is prevalent in Hinduism? It has always been prevalent in Hinduism in some form or the other. But nobody has been able to change the Indian society to get away from "caste" or "casteism". Your sentiments are very similar to that of an Islamic Jihadist - "I was born into this religion and now by God even if anyother religion appeals to me, I will not change my religion nor will I help change the religion itself, but I will defend it. Now that is "reason"."
The rest of your comment is just hogwash. No church will accept Hindu practices so that Dalits can worship. Many Dalits themselves do not think they are Hindus according to Dalit leaders. Look up idol in a dictionary and then figure out why the cross is not an idol. Nobody "worships" the statues of saints in the church.
Christist anon,
Please spare the Hindu problems and fix the problems that christists have created all over the world. Let Hindus fix thier own house, they are quite capable of doing that if they can have the freedom to do that -- there are many doing that, people from different Hindu classes and "castes", including "Dalits" and other "castes" -- they are all Hindus. Please name those "Dalit" leaders who claim they are not Hindus -- even your fore-fathers were Hindus, whether you like it ot not!! So instead of spweing rubbish based on your half baked knowledge and indoctrinated mind, please allow us Hindus to "Live and let Live" -- else you are going to help increase the ranks of the "fundamentalists" which will not augur well for bith you and me. Please keep your prejudiced arguments for yourself and solve your own problems, too much has been created in Africa, South America! When millions are improverised acsross these continents, why don't you focus on saving thier day to day sustenance instead of challenging the Hindus in thier own soil! Man, you guys have the gall...
Dark Storm,
Icons and statues are entirely different. The Church (and for me, that doesnt include the Protestants/Evangelicals because they arent part of the Apostolic tradition) does not do idol worship. I remember visiting the Infant Jesus Church in Vivek Nagar, Bangalore and seeing people kiss and revere the idols of Mary and Jesus. First of all, Mary is not god, she can be an intercessory (is there a word like that?) at best. So worshipping her is not considered a Christian practice (no matter how much Catholics try to argue about that).
Unfortunately, when the first schism in the church occured, the Catholic Pope and the Catholic Church became the dominant one, especially in Europe, which is why people (more so on the West) see the Church as being either Catholic or Protestant.
As for pissing on a statue or burning a cross, it is a sign of disrespect. Much like burning or stamping on the National Flag. So, your argument that this means it is idol worhsip doesnt hold true. How about doing the same witht he photos of our parents of elders in the family? Doesnt mean we worship them either, right?
My point being (and I have said this before on this forum too), learn to differentiate between those who follow Christianity without adulterating it with practices such as the above and the evangelicals who bribe, coerce and convert people to increase their numbers. Also, just to note: the former have been practising their faith in India for over 1900 years, without (I think) a single skirmish with Hinduism..
This reminds me of something. Rajeev has often tried to disprove that St Thomas landed in India, saying that it was Thoma of Cana (the person who established the Knanaaya sabha) and not St Thomas, the apostle of Christ. I dont understand the motivation behind this. For some proof, read "The Church of St Thomas" (written by Edavazhickal M. Philip, I think).
Hindus should understand that Christianity (at least in Kerala) was not brought forward by the Portuguese or Anglicans. It is not even a "Western" faith. So, that means Christianity cannot be held responsible for everything that is done in the name of Christ. This being the case, rather than dubbing them as Christists, call them evangelicals or coin some new term for the rest of the people who dont follow true Christianity.
Toney, If any Hindu anywhere does anything bad, the Christists scream that Hinduism is a terrible religion. When they return the favor, why are you protesting?
Fine distinctions between Catholics and others is not relevant. All Christists because they all worship Christ. There are terrible quarrels between Christists. Protestants call the Pope "the whore of Babylon", but that's your internal problem.
There is no difference between the way Christists worship Christ/Mary/the cross/the Bible and the way Hindus worship their deities. They are all aware these are symbols. They and you are idol-worshippers, or they and you are not idol-worshippers, but what they are you do is the same thing.
Rajeev is shouting about the Thomas lie because it is a major hoax. Your last paragraph gives it away: you innocently say that Christism in Kerala is not even a "western" faith. That is precisely the point behind the Thomas hoax. So what is Christism in Kerala? An Indian faith? ROTFL. No, it is an import, an Arab faith brought in by refugees in 345 AD.
The whole idea behind the Thomas hoax is to make people like you (and a lot of brainwashed Hindus) believe that Christism is an Indian faith. Next step usually is to say that the Krishna mythology is borrowed from the Christ mythology. The next step it is to say the Hindu puranas are all based on Christist ideas. I have seen this in my time in the church. There is a whole industry manufacturing ideas like this. The end goal is to wipe out Hinduism. This is why people are pushing back on the Thomas myth. You have no proof of Thomas' arrival, or even for the existence of Christ.
Your reference book is entertaining. It is written by some Kerala Christist who will of course parrot this hoax. There is a whole subculture of Christist guys from Kerala in the US, usually nurses' husbands imported from Kerala and unemployed. They spend their time making up myths. One claims that the Nairs of Kerala and the Christists went to Kerala together from Chennai. This is also ROTFLMAO funny.
Please dont talk about the 'true' Christism. We have heard enough Muslim apologists talk about the 'true' Islam to know that this is bullshit.
Christism is a conquering religion. Its goal is to make the world's people subservient to whites. This is why people like me get disgusted and leave it.
Mathew, the ex-devil-worshipper
Mathew, the ex-devil-worshipper
Your reference book is entertaining. It is written by some Kerala Christist who will of course parrot this hoax. There is a whole subculture of Christist guys from Kerala in the US, usually nurses' husbands imported from Kerala and unemployed. They spend their time making up myths. One claims that the Nairs of Kerala and the Christists went to Kerala together from Chennai. This is also ROTFLMAO funny.
This book was written in 1908, so you are telling me there were unemployed husbands living off nurses in the US and Middle East? First of all, read the book or know what it is about. It contains specific documents which show proof unlike what you accuse this person of.
that Christism is an Indian faith
I never said that. I said it is not a faith started in the West. The West, I thought meant Europe and USA. Sure, Christianity was founded in the Middle East.
So what is Christism in Kerala? An Indian faith?
Christianity (Orthodox) in Kerala is acceptance of Christ as God and merging of Hindu practices into the religion (thali, mathrakodi/pudava, music, celebrations).
Fine distinctions between Catholics and others is not relevant.
These distinctions are relevant because Apostolic churches dont consider the Protestant church as Christian.
Please dont talk about the 'true' Christism. We have heard enough Muslim apologists talk about the 'true' Islam to know that this is bullshit.
There's a big differnece, mate. When certain Muslims say that true Islam is a religion of peace, they do nothing other than say so.
Whereas, in this case, these sects do not even get recognition from the Apostolic churches. For eg, to marry into a person from an Orthodox church, the Protestant/Catholic etc should first convert (baptism). What more can such people do?
I think you should shed yourself of this tendency to generalize (that some evangelicals do that wrt Hindus is not my fault) and then respond.
Toney,
Looks like you have not realized it (perhaps you will never) -- christism is a global industry, a marketing spin, the product sold is Christ! The amount of money generated by this industry is bigger than all the top acknowledged commercial establishments of the world. In other worlds christism is the world's biggest commercial establishment, although not acknowledged.
The spin doctors have realized that to sustain the industry they have to do the following, just as a successful corporation would do:
1. competitive market analysis -- follow and adop the features of competitors, hence the adoption of native practices (which they will ofcourse claim as thier own IP in time)
2. funding R&D -- to enter new markets, such as India, incubate (read fund and cultivate local christists) and then proliferate the market (read convert with inducement, allurements, misinformation and hate propaganda).
3. manufacturing and employment -- exploit non-white "sheep" by looting natural resources from these cultures, to sustain employment, quality of life in thier own home countries (read the white countries of the North)
3. Collaborations -- regimes such as UN, NATO, etc. to maintain "leadership".
4. Strategic partnerships -- a ploy to induce dissenting non-white democracies into believing that they are equal partners -- still using the carrot and stick policy.
Do you want any more elaboration? Christism is the biggest marketing spin, manufactured by the whites to keep the other races enslaved, thes include the yellows, the browns and the blacks! Some browns in India have been "vested" with the "power" (read chrisists) to question the other majority browns, so now they feel they are "whites", and in this pseudo sense of "whiteness", they have become the judge and jury, finding fault with their own brothers and sisters -- all having the same ancestory. christists and islamists take instructions from outside of India and wreak ruin in thier own land! These are really "sheep" who are blindly following the "shepherd" -- they are being herded really into unwanted and unwarranted territories! Free your shackles man, from this yoke of slavery and bondage -- you have lost your identity, your culture and your roots! So, please realize that the game is up!
DarkStorm,
I am immensely gratified,you have a clear insight into issues concerning all of us,with only noble intentions at heart.Unfortunately bigots who respond are only interested in empty verbal rebuttal with emptier verbiage.
I wish I had known something about computers too,to answer whatever queries you had posted!!
Well,irrepressible,that I am,I would like to say, "listen to what your blood whispers to you" and go by your inner lights!
Give every IT wizard thine ear,but,reserve your Judgement!!
God Bless You!!!
Kalyani, if your sarcasm is directed at me, thanks.
Dark Storm,
These distinctions are relevant because Apostolic churches dont consider the Protestant church as Christian.
Then why did you protest against anti-conversion laws.
Where did I protest? I had made it very clear (wherever this was discussed) that I am against coerced conversions of any kind. But the constitution provides the freedom to practise, preach and propagate any religion of choice, right? I am all for it. I am against bribery to convert and I am also against the numbers target that a lot of "churches" have.
Why does your pope recognize your whatever sects, which you dont consider christist. why does he still talk about hinduism, yoga being pagan practices. why does he encourage conversions by any means, also saying asia is the next hunting ground for christists.
Ugh, this shows you probably werent reading what I wrote (or as Kalyani says, since I am interested in empty verbal rebuttal, maybe my posts didnt make sense). Do I have a Pope? I never said I was Catholic :) The spiritual head of my church in Kerala is called the Catholicos (nothing to do with Catholic denomination) and the overall head is called the Patriarch. As far as I know, the Catholicos in Kerala has had no problem with the Hindus (or Muslims) and he has been the head for 25 years. The Patriarch (who is foregn) had opposition only from a competing denomination which broke off under controversial circumstances recently. He was accorded honour as a state guest (India, not "Christist" Kerala), if I am not wrong. So which of these is Pope Benedict the XVI or Pope John Paul?
As for intolerance, please tell me, which Hindu temple even allows a non-believer to enter the premises? Wouldnt I make the temple ashudhdham if I so much as look at it? I had once visited TVM and went to the temple of Sree Padmanabha only to be turned down a visit because I am a "non-believer". Is this tolerance? The only reason I wasnt allowed access was that I was naive to ask someone and I was shouted at, in public, as if I had stolen the statue there.And dont tell that this was started in response to the fanatic Christians. This is not an accusation, just trying to disprove your belief that Hinduism is the only open and moderate religion in the world.
Now you are really entertaining us
Glad I made your day.
Ok, the same here. Hinduism and Hindus cannot be held responsible for everything done in the name of Hinduism. Accept this fact or f**k off.
As for the generalizing part- this is how i mean it. I havent generalized Hindus in any of my posts here. While you have at every point made it a point to do so. And I have made it very obvious that I dont generalize any group simply because of the evil actions of a small percentage of peope. You are welcome to do what you please.
One final request: As far as I remember, I havent uttered a single obscenity when arguing with you. I know you could ask me to stop visiting this forum if I couldnt take it. But I think, if everyone resorts to civilized interactions, this would be much more pleasant. Thats upto you now.
DarkStorm,
I was very honest and wrote from my heart .I was not being sarcastic or caustic at all.Sorry if I had inadvertently given such an impression.
Dark Storm,
Your last statement reveals all...
As for me trying to be part of the Roman empire: in spite of all I say, you still havent got it that I am not Catholic.
How much did the Portuguese pay you or your ancestors
They converted (tired) the existing Orthodox church into Catholicism, burnt all the manuscripts (even had Peshito Bibles) and declared all the Orthodox practices pagan. This faith is what I belong to. Mate, if anyone should nurse a grudge towards Catholics, it is me and the Orthodox group who have taken over the ownership of the Church.
The Southern US that you so readily talk about in the US is an evangelical/protestant faith, again very different from Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
Anyhow, no hard feelings on my part.
Trying to be more like your western mentors, eh
If you cannot understand any of this in spite of me conveying this several times, well... Orthodoxy is not a western practice.
My dad had a friend called Alexander from Kerala,
Exactly which person from INdia is treated like kin in the US? Or Europe? Arent we equally guilty of racism, calling all whites firangis, goras etc?
Can you list out the Qs you have? One of them might be about idol worship. The difference is this: Catholics keep idols of saints in their churches. Orthodox people dont. Period. Catholics are not supposedto worship them but yes, over the years, they have started doing that. Officially, they are not supposed to. The Orthodox peoplekeep a wooden cross in the church (dont know abt Catholics). This is only in memory of the cross used for crucifix. Again, this is NOT to be considered an object of worship.
I honestly dont care abouot what Hindus do in this respect. I am curious to know, of course but it doesnt make a difference.
And now , you are justifying conversions.
Always, if, as I mentioned before, they are done out of true faith and not for any other reason. How about you? Are you against such conversions?
Most western Christians are much more liberal and truthful than you Indian CSDs are.
Really? So we all know who amongst us actually fell for the polite West! I'll give you one example: one of my office mates once remarked how Islamic fundamentalism is growing all over Europe and cited that Christians in Southern US are not bad in this respect either. Now sit back and listen to his final sentence -- "I cannot believe that the cultured West is doing what the under developed countries are doing." This was said in the presence of three Indians including myself. This is their general attitude to all east of Turkey. I used to find it irritating to begin with but now I find it amusing because it is based on ignorance more than anything else.
"They converted (tired) the existing Orthodox church into Catholicism, burnt all the manuscripts (even had Peshito Bibles) and declared all the Orthodox practices pagan. This faith is what I belong to. Mate, if anyone should nurse a grudge towards Catholics, it is me and the Orthodox group who have taken over the ownership of the Church."
Meant it like this:
They converted (tried) the existing Orthodox church into Catholicism, burnt all the manuscripts (even had Peshito Bibles) and declared all the Orthodox practices pagan. This faith is what I belong to. Mate, if anyone should nurse a grudge towards Catholics, it is me and the Orthodox group who know that the Catholics have taken over the ownership of the Church.
Anonymous,
The one who has patiently addressed phoneytonie ...."Looks like you have not realised......your game is up":-
Excellent!I have lost what little patience I had and am AOL (arrrrrrrghing
out loud)nowadays and the 'sinners' responsible are phoneytoniesanthonies!!Beware!!
Thou shall not engage us in silly arguments.
Thou shall give up this posturing of wanting to know about OhmigawdGod.
Thou shall read and ruminate over the ratiocination of noble Hindus including ex devil worshippers who take time to untiringly and wearisomely bludgeon some sense into your antivedic numbskulls.
Thou shall not type back "which noble Hindu ...which comment...point out learned Kalyani...."
If you watch Hollywood movies good!Thou shall watch and enjoy Godfather 3(first,followed by 2 and 1 may be)Thou shall watch Simon Birch and many more,I am sure Darkstorm and others can suggest lots of movies etc.
Thou shall follow at least this counsel.
See, ain't we more compassionate?
Thou shall rewind and rewind and rewind to watch (in Godfather 3)how the nincompooop gets killed.
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