Tuesday, November 08, 2005

what jesus may have looked like: ideas for postage stamps

nov 8th

i have been following the controversy over the uk stamp with hindus worshipping jesus which they simply refused to withdraw.

now take a look at this story from the discovery channel: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041220/boyjesus.html

i am amused to see discovery waffle about the shroud of turin, which has been authoritatively (by the vatican) judged to be a medieval fake. i guess they dont want to piss off the true believers too much.

i personally don't believe jesus existed at all, i think he's a mythical figure made up by paul (earlier saul, a criminal), a very clever man indeed. i personally also don't have any problems with mythical demigods, some of the best are mythical. but i do have a problem with the christist sleight-of-hand that implies that their mythology is history. it's not, christist mythology is mythology. (actually, they should be called paulists and not christists, because that's what they are, followers of paul).

but let us be charitable for a moment and indulge christist fantasy. so if jesus did exist, what is he likely to have looked like? the blond 'Aryan' look (picture 1) or the true arab look (picture 2)?

much more likely, picture 2, "dark, coarse, vacant-eyed, jewish". he would have looked like other jews and arabs around him, for after all, he was a jew/arab/semitic type and also an artisan-born, hounded religious extremist, not a well-manicured and well-coiffed aristocrat.

in general jesus wouldn't look, for instance, like an eskimo, or a blond, blue-eyed viking, nor like an upper-class, refined, educated person.

the perfect riposte to the british stamp would be for india post to bring out a christmas stamp with picture 2 (coarse, vacant) as the image. why, it is a picture of jesus from the discovery channel, just like you guys found a mughal painting supposedly "hanging in a mumbai museum". which mumbai museum, where? nobody knows. well, i am giving you the source, discovery channel, a reputable entity.

another possibility would be to have the robert mapplethorpe exhibit, "piss christ", with a crucifix upended in a beaker or urine, as the image on a christmas postage stamp from india post. why, this image was shown at an exhibition at a reputable american museum recently. got to be liberal, you know, give the opportunity to gay people too to express their ideas about jesus.

this is the sort of response christists would understand. just as they are scared of mohammedan knives and bullets, and the yanks are scared of chinese brickbats about human rights, an in-your-face, rude response would wake them up.

but of course natwar-types in india (beholden to lots of foreign cash) would never do this. it takes cojones.

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

Royal Mail apologizes abd withdraws stamp with Hindu images

http://headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13979080

Anonymous said...

I, being a Christian dont take offense to showing Christ as a Middle East Arab or Jew. In fact, I am dead against showing him as blond and blue-eyed.

As for the non-existence of Jesus: Saul was a Jew who persecuted Christians and his persecution of Christians is well documented. So, your theory is baseless.
And I dont think any reasonable Christian will argue about the authenticity of the shroud. It has been proven that this is not "the" shroud (dont start about not being able to find reasonable Chrisitians, spare that for the Muslims).

Finally, reading of the Gospels or for that matter, any of Paul's Epistles with an open mind will show that none of it was based on human imagination. If Christ's image depends on the current living style of Christians (or their arrogance or the conversion agenda of Protestant chruches or...), how about doing the same with Hindu fanatics too?

Anonymous said...


If Christ's image depends on the current living style of Christians (or their arrogance or the conversion agenda of Protestant chruches or...), how about doing the same with Hindu fanatics too?


Anon,

If the Christists and Islamists stop thier non-sense the Hindu "fanatics" will stop theirs I am sure! The "fanaticism" is a consequence (the effect) from the cause of centuries of abuse from these exclusivist, invading and intrusive ideoligies! When freedom is lost then even the timid will have to resort to what you term as "fundamentalism" -- it is a matter of their survival.

If you are objective yourself, you will see that the "fundamentalist" actions of some Hindus are more a necessity out of frustration than out of choice. When Muslim and Chistian violence and hate mongering are rationalized as expressions of frustration or love of God, why not accept Hindu frustrations as well? Destroy and/or reform the Christists and the Islamists the "fundamentalism" among Hindus will disappear.

Kalyani said...

Anonymous 2 is right.

Muslims burn down everything whereas christians steal,distort, spin tall tales very santimoniously!

anonymous no 1, you churchians are a tad worse!

Kalyani said...

ShivaShiva....,did not notice there were 3 anon(s).The one right above my comment is right.

Kalyani said...

correction--"sanctimoniously"

Anonymous said...

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1292598&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

The "cause and effect theory" is getting to be a little old. Using the cause and effect theory, one can justify slavery, justify casteism, justify the current religious right backlash in the US etc. With the "stamp" issue, people (majority - read whites) in the UK have already seen the "Santhana Dharma" in action. Check the blogs out - they now equate the Hindu Forum with the Muslim Council of UK.

Kalyani said...

brits or christists or whites or indian secularists CANNOT be the judge and jury!!

Nervousness of certain sections of people belonging to certain communities (allegedly,allegedly...)is so pathetically patent!

Anonymous said...


http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1292598&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

The "cause and effect theory" is getting to be a little old. Using the cause and effect theory, one can justify slavery, justify casteism, justify the current religious right backlash in the US etc. With the "stamp" issue, people (majority - read whites) in the UK have already seen the "Santhana Dharma" in action. Check the blogs out - they now equate the Hindu Forum with the Muslim Council of UK.


Anon,

Look who is talking! You so eloquently wax the same old cliches such as caste! How many morons can see the distinction between caste and casteism -- this despite beating this dead horse to death! You will only believe what you want to believe -- often that is because you are guided by your own prejudices (often religious or caste hatred, indoctrination by the Christists, Islamists, commies or aetheists!)

The "cause and effect" is an old ploy by the Islamists and Christists where they justify their every action of violence and destruction as frustraiton of their youth! Look how France is buring -- all by Islamists! These organized religious morons deal with every reaction to their atrocities by equating (as you have pointed out) the victims with the perpetrators. The media is a very willing partner in this charade!

Please don't dish out garbage as valid information and links.

Simply ask yourself this question:

When did this so called "fundamentalism" of Hindus came about to the extent of being ridiculed as "fundamentalism"?

The answer:

In the 90s stupid! The exodus of the Pandits from the valley, the deafening silence of the so called "media", the inaction and apathy by the politicains, the continued atrocities by the commie/aetheist/mullah/christist nexus, the lost religious freedom (read managing thier own religious institutions and affairs), the gifiting away of temple wealth to Christists and Islamists, the indifference of the "world community" (whether in Bangla Desh, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, UK, USA) to Hindu travails! Kerala is a classic example of how the minority controls the majority!

Now why should not the Hindus organize themselves to win back their freedom from these mauraders (orgnized religions, unscroupulous politicians and commercial interests) -- all pointing at the Hindus (and thier "caste" system) as the common enemy to mankind!

Look at the Muslim world and see how "advanced" they are, look at the non-white Christian countries to see how they are faring! So please spare us this cock-and-bull about problems with Hindus. Even a Muslim organization in Mumbai honestly admitted that India is secular and pluralistic because of the Hindus!

The real causes of the problems in India are:

1. Organized religion
2. Dirty politics which prefers political expediency over nation
3. Shameless commercial interests (often owned by political groups & not socially conscious corporates)
4. A completely divided society who place thier own personal affiliations and biases over national interest.

If these are cleaned up India will be one of the greatest countries on earth! Anyone who can bell the cat?!?

Kalyani said...

Anonymous right above,

"Even a muslim organization......because of the Hindus"

Let us not fall for the treacherous compliments,conciliatory comments and supplicatory noises,which are in the offing.Remember the Crow and fox story!

We are not beggars ;never were we.We are the victims;we always were.Exorcise gandhian silly maudlin ghost.

DarkStorm said...

Hey, anonymous christist, why dont you get an id instead of posting anonymously all over the blogosphere.

Stop spewing fire, and you wont get fire in return. You guys really dont understand, dont you. Whether he was a middle eastern arab eating ( and ****ing ) camels or a blond, it does not matter, as long as you really understand what he was trying to tell you guys.

LOL.. Joan of Arc was burnt as a witch by the church.. LMAO.. lets talk about our caste system. :D
And probably many young paedophilia victims were too burnt alive as witches and wizards by your priests... all those stories about medieval ghosts, witches and wizards that we hear.. :)

Now, read the Bible twice, then come back to spread your calumny against anyone.

Again, sad to see that you know much less about your religion than me.

Anonymous said...

Darkstorm,
I am the anon who is "OK" with the Middle Eastern face for Christ. I dindt write any of the rest.

I dindt exactly understand your post. Is the burning of JOan of Arc or the non-acceptance of Gallileo's theories or the paedophillia among Catholic priests supported by the Bible? Or are you saying that no Christian follows what Christ said? I agree to the latter.

As for me spewing fire, where exactly?? I guess you are blinded to the extent that as soon as a Christian posts something, you have to dub it as calumby against the Hindus... Glad that none of the Hindus I know personally (and I know a lot) are like you.

Jayraj said...

Islamist jehadis and Christian terrorists are more venemous than shit-headed marxists in India. These three are well organized and experts in Anti-indian activites. Yes these are more dangerous than even the ISI

DarkStorm said...

Well anon, actions speak louder than words.

Galileos theories or burning Joan of Arc as a witch (LMAO at this, come on, she was a war hero, saved France, and you guys burnt her..??) are just examples to show you that you are as dogmatic as you accuse us of being.

You guys really like to talk about the caste system, adding your own ideas to it, abuse Hindus on the whole. See, you have fingers pointing at you as you point fingers at us. That was my point. Hope you now understand my post.

And remember, most Hindus are reluctant fundamentalists.

Only a section of Hindus really believe in caste system, specially the backward areas of the country. It is somewhat like south US, where people are more rabid.

Know what, I have read the Bible, and the book of Psalms. Do they tell you to indulge in bribery , extortion and coercion to increase your followers. I too have Christian friends. I had quite some respect for Christianity, but not now. See, I am not the kind of image of a Hindu you portray, someone believing in casteism, someone who wears saffron, carries trishuls and goes around killing so-called minorities. But I dont accept your slander against my faith, it does not matter how much I believe in my faith. I did not have any option to select a religion when I was born. So now that I am here, I am very much proud of it.

What about that calumny about Hinduism worshipping fake Gods(all Gods are false then :-) ), about that miracles to awe tribals to convert, about spreading anti-Hindu sentiments, etc etc. What about that talk of paedophile priests wearing frocks on TV, when they were talking of adopting Hindu practices in church. They said, they are doing it because dalits amongst us need to worship. They said, we are accused of conversions (that is true), and so we will adopt Hindu practices, to prove we dont. (well, that is not an excuse to continue with your cheap soul-harvesting). They said, we not only include Hinduism, but also Dalit practices. Now now now.. wait... so called Dalits are Hindus. You imply that they are a separate religion. There were comments on the caste system. Dont you bloody Christists have sects ... separate churches for Blacks and Asians and Whites. See, divisions are everywhere, so you dont make an issue out of us, and blame Hinduism for it, and that too, before you clean up your own house.

You already are idol-worshippers. If not, then it should not matter to you if I piss on a statue of Christ or burn the cross. Dont take it otherwise, I dont mean to do that, and I have respect for Jesus, (but not for church). My point is - It is just that idols are symbols, a representation, my dear friend. You still havent answered what is the idol of Jesus and Mary doing in a church, and what is the wooden cross doing in the church, if they are not idols. Extend it to jehadis, and for them the stones in mecca and the graves are their idols. If you say, you dont worship the idols, then do you think we do ??? Why otherwise, old idols are replaced by new ones, and old ones submerged in rivers and seas. Would we throw God in the waters. No, it is the idols, the symbols, that are being replaced.

You dont spread calumny does not mean the rest of you dont. I dont know why this logic does not apply to us. This logic "Not all Muslims are jehadis. ". OR "Not all Christists are evangelists/liars". You know what, we very much are generalized like that. Like Hindus are bad, Hindus worship idols, Hindus are bigots and casteists. I have never never in my life, heard something like "No, not all Hindus are like that".

Forget it. It runs way too deep. It is not possible for you narrow minded ostriches hiding their heads in the sand to understand that. I worship a thousand Gods and I have no problem making it a thousand and one. You guys, if you dont acknowledge our faith, then keep off. We dont bother. We dont need your acknowledgement. It is attacks against us that might lead to worse things.

Anonymous said...

Galileos theories or burning Joan of Arc as a witch (LMAO at this, come on, she was a war hero, saved France, and you guys burnt her..??) are just examples to show you that you are as dogmatic as you accuse us of being.

DarkStorm the pseudo-historian, why don't you find out the prevailing theory in Europe in astronomy at the time of Galileo. Then find out what proof Galileo offered for his heliocentric theory. Then find out why many learned astronomers of his (Galileo's) time opposed his theory. Then you can begin to understand Galileo's problem. Turning to Rajeev's favorite encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc ,how do you explain that Joan of Arc is a Saint in the Catholic Church? Where did you read that she was convicted as a witch? "....trial for heresy was political. The duke of Bedford claimed the throne of France for his nephew Henry VI. She was responsible for his rival's coronation. Discrediting her was an attempt to discredit her king. Legal proceedings commenced on 9 January 1431, at Rouen, the seat of the English occupation government. The procedure was irregular on a number of points."

Know what, I have read the Bible, and the book of Psalms. Do they tell you to indulge in bribery , extortion and coercion to increase your followers. I too have Christian friends. I had quite some respect for Christianity, but not now. See, I am not the kind of image of a Hindu you portray, someone believing in casteism, someone who wears saffron, carries trishuls and goes around killing so-called minorities. But I dont accept your slander against my faith, it does not matter how much I believe in my faith. I did not have any option to select a religion when I was born. So now that I am here, I am very much proud of it.

What "slander" - that Casteism is prevalent in Hinduism? It has always been prevalent in Hinduism in some form or the other. But nobody has been able to change the Indian society to get away from "caste" or "casteism". Your sentiments are very similar to that of an Islamic Jihadist - "I was born into this religion and now by God even if anyother religion appeals to me, I will not change my religion nor will I help change the religion itself, but I will defend it. Now that is "reason"."

The rest of your comment is just hogwash. No church will accept Hindu practices so that Dalits can worship. Many Dalits themselves do not think they are Hindus according to Dalit leaders. Look up idol in a dictionary and then figure out why the cross is not an idol. Nobody "worships" the statues of saints in the church.

Anonymous said...

Christist anon,

Please spare the Hindu problems and fix the problems that christists have created all over the world. Let Hindus fix thier own house, they are quite capable of doing that if they can have the freedom to do that -- there are many doing that, people from different Hindu classes and "castes", including "Dalits" and other "castes" -- they are all Hindus. Please name those "Dalit" leaders who claim they are not Hindus -- even your fore-fathers were Hindus, whether you like it ot not!! So instead of spweing rubbish based on your half baked knowledge and indoctrinated mind, please allow us Hindus to "Live and let Live" -- else you are going to help increase the ranks of the "fundamentalists" which will not augur well for bith you and me. Please keep your prejudiced arguments for yourself and solve your own problems, too much has been created in Africa, South America! When millions are improverised acsross these continents, why don't you focus on saving thier day to day sustenance instead of challenging the Hindus in thier own soil! Man, you guys have the gall...

DarkStorm said...

yep, first you kill her, burn her as a witch, then you make her a saint.. LMAO.. she was convicted by the church, brit or frenchie, doesnt matter. it was the church.

i have told you thrice earlier, we dont worship idols. Idols are symbols just like your cross and jesus and mary statues. Why dont you get this into your sawdust filled head.

Ok casteism is there but is your church free from this ??? This is what I am trying to say, and you keep repeating your old records. come on now, casteism is everywhere, you are blaming Hinduism for basic human nature. Arent you bloody Christists racist.

See, i am tired of your same old arguments.
just tell me, why do you want to convert people. forget everything else, if it makes you happy, ok we are casteist idol worshippers, pagans, and we are happy with it.
but why conversions.. tell me,... give me one good reason.

anyway, i dont expect you will reply.

DarkStorm said...

christist anon,

what you just said about us worshipping idols is like this.

I say you are not your fathers son. Now, I tell everyone that. And then tell you to look up the meaning of bastard in the dictionary. The point is that you assumed that we worship the stone.
Anyway, lets assume we worship idols and stones. Give me good reasons what is wrong with that. What really is wrong with idol worship. Give logical answers, not quotes from Bible.

You know what, you call me a fundie. LOL... nice way to force your argument. It is this labelling that we are against. arent we slandered like that all over. any Hindu demanding equality, and they are branded fundamentalist. Seriously doesnt matter to us. Whats right is right, and wrong is wrong.

you dont understand any religion, and say that we worship idols. you conviniently ignored my previous points and just blabber on with your old posts. Come on, get an id and really , i am open to your thoughts.

just as you say, we dont worship statues, we too dont worship statues. dont you understand this. as you find us idol-worshippers, we find you idol-worshippers. its the same , friend, it is the same thing. really , try to understand things before you post fundamentalist christist venom here. you know, even if you dont have a statue or picture of any of the thousand Gods in front of you, you can still worship. You dont need to have a statue to worship, statue is just a representation, dont you understand. just like yours.

you ask "what slander". well you add your own bullshit to the truth, and dish it out. come on, why dont you try to convert the urban Hindus, people like us, rather than fooling gullible tribals, and arming them to kill others. (like in North-east india). Wherever you have gone , you have killed individual cultures and replaced them with your own brand of idol-worship.

*you already are idol-worshippers*, going by your logic.

you say, "where in bible is burning witches supported, or paedophilia supported". Well, then casteism is also not supported in Hindu religious texts. But you break your rules, we break ours too. If you logically and coolly think, this is human nature. casteism, racism etc are human nature. there will always be wars, if not between races, then between different groups of the same race, right down to family level.

You dont go around blaming Hinduism for which it is not responsible. Isnt that slander. look up the dictionary for the meaning of slander.

DarkStorm said...

hey anon christist,

look up the meaning of heretic and heresy in the dictionary.

Toney said...

Dark Storm,
Icons and statues are entirely different. The Church (and for me, that doesnt include the Protestants/Evangelicals because they arent part of the Apostolic tradition) does not do idol worship. I remember visiting the Infant Jesus Church in Vivek Nagar, Bangalore and seeing people kiss and revere the idols of Mary and Jesus. First of all, Mary is not god, she can be an intercessory (is there a word like that?) at best. So worshipping her is not considered a Christian practice (no matter how much Catholics try to argue about that).
Unfortunately, when the first schism in the church occured, the Catholic Pope and the Catholic Church became the dominant one, especially in Europe, which is why people (more so on the West) see the Church as being either Catholic or Protestant.
As for pissing on a statue or burning a cross, it is a sign of disrespect. Much like burning or stamping on the National Flag. So, your argument that this means it is idol worhsip doesnt hold true. How about doing the same witht he photos of our parents of elders in the family? Doesnt mean we worship them either, right?
My point being (and I have said this before on this forum too), learn to differentiate between those who follow Christianity without adulterating it with practices such as the above and the evangelicals who bribe, coerce and convert people to increase their numbers. Also, just to note: the former have been practising their faith in India for over 1900 years, without (I think) a single skirmish with Hinduism..
This reminds me of something. Rajeev has often tried to disprove that St Thomas landed in India, saying that it was Thoma of Cana (the person who established the Knanaaya sabha) and not St Thomas, the apostle of Christ. I dont understand the motivation behind this. For some proof, read "The Church of St Thomas" (written by Edavazhickal M. Philip, I think).

Hindus should understand that Christianity (at least in Kerala) was not brought forward by the Portuguese or Anglicans. It is not even a "Western" faith. So, that means Christianity cannot be held responsible for everything that is done in the name of Christ. This being the case, rather than dubbing them as Christists, call them evangelicals or coin some new term for the rest of the people who dont follow true Christianity.

Anonymous said...

Toney, If any Hindu anywhere does anything bad, the Christists scream that Hinduism is a terrible religion. When they return the favor, why are you protesting?

Fine distinctions between Catholics and others is not relevant. All Christists because they all worship Christ. There are terrible quarrels between Christists. Protestants call the Pope "the whore of Babylon", but that's your internal problem.

There is no difference between the way Christists worship Christ/Mary/the cross/the Bible and the way Hindus worship their deities. They are all aware these are symbols. They and you are idol-worshippers, or they and you are not idol-worshippers, but what they are you do is the same thing.

Rajeev is shouting about the Thomas lie because it is a major hoax. Your last paragraph gives it away: you innocently say that Christism in Kerala is not even a "western" faith. That is precisely the point behind the Thomas hoax. So what is Christism in Kerala? An Indian faith? ROTFL. No, it is an import, an Arab faith brought in by refugees in 345 AD.

The whole idea behind the Thomas hoax is to make people like you (and a lot of brainwashed Hindus) believe that Christism is an Indian faith. Next step usually is to say that the Krishna mythology is borrowed from the Christ mythology. The next step it is to say the Hindu puranas are all based on Christist ideas. I have seen this in my time in the church. There is a whole industry manufacturing ideas like this. The end goal is to wipe out Hinduism. This is why people are pushing back on the Thomas myth. You have no proof of Thomas' arrival, or even for the existence of Christ.

Your reference book is entertaining. It is written by some Kerala Christist who will of course parrot this hoax. There is a whole subculture of Christist guys from Kerala in the US, usually nurses' husbands imported from Kerala and unemployed. They spend their time making up myths. One claims that the Nairs of Kerala and the Christists went to Kerala together from Chennai. This is also ROTFLMAO funny.

Please dont talk about the 'true' Christism. We have heard enough Muslim apologists talk about the 'true' Islam to know that this is bullshit.

Christism is a conquering religion. Its goal is to make the world's people subservient to whites. This is why people like me get disgusted and leave it.

Mathew, the ex-devil-worshipper

Toney said...

Mathew, the ex-devil-worshipper
Your reference book is entertaining. It is written by some Kerala Christist who will of course parrot this hoax. There is a whole subculture of Christist guys from Kerala in the US, usually nurses' husbands imported from Kerala and unemployed. They spend their time making up myths. One claims that the Nairs of Kerala and the Christists went to Kerala together from Chennai. This is also ROTFLMAO funny.

This book was written in 1908, so you are telling me there were unemployed husbands living off nurses in the US and Middle East? First of all, read the book or know what it is about. It contains specific documents which show proof unlike what you accuse this person of.

that Christism is an Indian faith
I never said that. I said it is not a faith started in the West. The West, I thought meant Europe and USA. Sure, Christianity was founded in the Middle East.

So what is Christism in Kerala? An Indian faith?
Christianity (Orthodox) in Kerala is acceptance of Christ as God and merging of Hindu practices into the religion (thali, mathrakodi/pudava, music, celebrations).

Fine distinctions between Catholics and others is not relevant.
These distinctions are relevant because Apostolic churches dont consider the Protestant church as Christian.

Please dont talk about the 'true' Christism. We have heard enough Muslim apologists talk about the 'true' Islam to know that this is bullshit.

There's a big differnece, mate. When certain Muslims say that true Islam is a religion of peace, they do nothing other than say so.
Whereas, in this case, these sects do not even get recognition from the Apostolic churches. For eg, to marry into a person from an Orthodox church, the Protestant/Catholic etc should first convert (baptism). What more can such people do?

I think you should shed yourself of this tendency to generalize (that some evangelicals do that wrt Hindus is not my fault) and then respond.

Anonymous said...

Toney,

Looks like you have not realized it (perhaps you will never) -- christism is a global industry, a marketing spin, the product sold is Christ! The amount of money generated by this industry is bigger than all the top acknowledged commercial establishments of the world. In other worlds christism is the world's biggest commercial establishment, although not acknowledged.

The spin doctors have realized that to sustain the industry they have to do the following, just as a successful corporation would do:

1. competitive market analysis -- follow and adop the features of competitors, hence the adoption of native practices (which they will ofcourse claim as thier own IP in time)

2. funding R&D -- to enter new markets, such as India, incubate (read fund and cultivate local christists) and then proliferate the market (read convert with inducement, allurements, misinformation and hate propaganda).

3. manufacturing and employment -- exploit non-white "sheep" by looting natural resources from these cultures, to sustain employment, quality of life in thier own home countries (read the white countries of the North)

3. Collaborations -- regimes such as UN, NATO, etc. to maintain "leadership".

4. Strategic partnerships -- a ploy to induce dissenting non-white democracies into believing that they are equal partners -- still using the carrot and stick policy.

Do you want any more elaboration? Christism is the biggest marketing spin, manufactured by the whites to keep the other races enslaved, thes include the yellows, the browns and the blacks! Some browns in India have been "vested" with the "power" (read chrisists) to question the other majority browns, so now they feel they are "whites", and in this pseudo sense of "whiteness", they have become the judge and jury, finding fault with their own brothers and sisters -- all having the same ancestory. christists and islamists take instructions from outside of India and wreak ruin in thier own land! These are really "sheep" who are blindly following the "shepherd" -- they are being herded really into unwanted and unwarranted territories! Free your shackles man, from this yoke of slavery and bondage -- you have lost your identity, your culture and your roots! So, please realize that the game is up!

DarkStorm said...

Toney,

I dont want to repeat what I said earlier again....

if we are idol worshippers, then you are too, in short.

and no answers to my questions...
listed for your convenience.
1. "assume" we are idol-worshippers. now tell me what exactly is wrong with idol worship. Do you really think we worship the stone/metal that the idol is made of ???? Come on, dont listen to your paedophile priests, they are liars. if you see someone worshipping a statue, you think he/she is idol worshipper. now we see you wearing crosses, kissing crosses, worshipping wooden crosses, and statues of jesus and mary, we think you are idol worshippers. ROFLMAO.... haha.. you are really hilarious, toney.

2. if we are casteists, are you not.

3. if we are pagans indulging in inhuman practices, are you not.. (remember joan of arc burnt by the church as a witch.. and many more.. forget galileo, even today the church does not accept many scientific theories..). what about many other people declared witches and wizards and burnt alive. what about the inquisition in south america and goa.

4. if hinduism is to blame for caste discrimination, then christism is to blame for many wars, racism, sectrian wars, colonialism.. do you accept the blame ? :))

Answer me. dont quote your Bible telling you it is the truth. see and judge for yourself.

we all have problems and it is best to solve them, rather than creating more trouble like you christists do.

DarkStorm said...

>>> These distinctions are relevant because Apostolic churches dont consider the Protestant church as Christian.

Then why did you protest against anti-conversion laws.

Why does your pope recognize your whatever sects, which you dont consider christist. why does he still talk about hinduism, yoga being pagan practices. why does he encourage conversions by any means, also saying asia is the next hunting ground for christists.

actions speak louder than words, buddy. i know all this goes down the drain, because you wont accept your fault, and neither would I accept your bl**dy lies.

DarkStorm said...

>>>
I think you should shed yourself of this tendency to generalize (that some evangelicals do that wrt Hindus is not my fault) and then respond.

Why dont you give up your tendency to generalize, for a real change, instead of continually screaming at us to do so. :))

Now you are really entertaining us. I thought you were one sensible guy who understood things as they are.

DarkStorm said...

You are contradicting yourself , toney. Why dont you really think before you post your junk, for a real change, instead of eating your foot. :)

>>> So, that means
>Christianity cannot be held
>responsible for everything that
>is done in the name of Christ.


Why does this not apply to us ??

Ok, the same here. Hinduism and Hindus cannot be held responsible for everything done in the name of Hinduism. Accept this fact or f**k off.

Some Hindus discriminating on the basis of caste does not mean you slander Hindus on the whole.

Kalyani said...

DarkStorm,

I am immensely gratified,you have a clear insight into issues concerning all of us,with only noble intentions at heart.Unfortunately bigots who respond are only interested in empty verbal rebuttal with emptier verbiage.

I wish I had known something about computers too,to answer whatever queries you had posted!!

Well,irrepressible,that I am,I would like to say, "listen to what your blood whispers to you" and go by your inner lights!

Give every IT wizard thine ear,but,reserve your Judgement!!

God Bless You!!!

Toney said...

Kalyani, if your sarcasm is directed at me, thanks.

Dark Storm,
These distinctions are relevant because Apostolic churches dont consider the Protestant church as Christian.

Then why did you protest against anti-conversion laws.


Where did I protest? I had made it very clear (wherever this was discussed) that I am against coerced conversions of any kind. But the constitution provides the freedom to practise, preach and propagate any religion of choice, right? I am all for it. I am against bribery to convert and I am also against the numbers target that a lot of "churches" have.

Why does your pope recognize your whatever sects, which you dont consider christist. why does he still talk about hinduism, yoga being pagan practices. why does he encourage conversions by any means, also saying asia is the next hunting ground for christists.
Ugh, this shows you probably werent reading what I wrote (or as Kalyani says, since I am interested in empty verbal rebuttal, maybe my posts didnt make sense). Do I have a Pope? I never said I was Catholic :) The spiritual head of my church in Kerala is called the Catholicos (nothing to do with Catholic denomination) and the overall head is called the Patriarch. As far as I know, the Catholicos in Kerala has had no problem with the Hindus (or Muslims) and he has been the head for 25 years. The Patriarch (who is foregn) had opposition only from a competing denomination which broke off under controversial circumstances recently. He was accorded honour as a state guest (India, not "Christist" Kerala), if I am not wrong. So which of these is Pope Benedict the XVI or Pope John Paul?
As for intolerance, please tell me, which Hindu temple even allows a non-believer to enter the premises? Wouldnt I make the temple ashudhdham if I so much as look at it? I had once visited TVM and went to the temple of Sree Padmanabha only to be turned down a visit because I am a "non-believer". Is this tolerance? The only reason I wasnt allowed access was that I was naive to ask someone and I was shouted at, in public, as if I had stolen the statue there.And dont tell that this was started in response to the fanatic Christians. This is not an accusation, just trying to disprove your belief that Hinduism is the only open and moderate religion in the world.


Now you are really entertaining us
Glad I made your day.

Ok, the same here. Hinduism and Hindus cannot be held responsible for everything done in the name of Hinduism. Accept this fact or f**k off.
As for the generalizing part- this is how i mean it. I havent generalized Hindus in any of my posts here. While you have at every point made it a point to do so. And I have made it very obvious that I dont generalize any group simply because of the evil actions of a small percentage of peope. You are welcome to do what you please.

One final request: As far as I remember, I havent uttered a single obscenity when arguing with you. I know you could ask me to stop visiting this forum if I couldnt take it. But I think, if everyone resorts to civilized interactions, this would be much more pleasant. Thats upto you now.

Kalyani said...

DarkStorm,

I was very honest and wrote from my heart .I was not being sarcastic or caustic at all.Sorry if I had inadvertently given such an impression.

DarkStorm said...

>>>> As far as I remember, I havent uttered a single obscenity when arguing with you

You are not arguing, you are just repeating the same old thing again and again, without really understanding what I am writing and avoiding my questions, by raising other topics. nice technique, but does not work with me. also, you still havent answered my previous posts. you have lost your ground, to now point out anything to me. I would avoid making it unpleasant, definitely. But your constant slandering about casteism, and paganism and idol worship isnt helping it anyway.

Finally, if we are idol-worshippers, you all definitely are. End of Argument. Accept it. If you dont, dont post about it.

Look around for RATzingers and john pauls (isnt john another word for a loo :D) comments on this blog, with links to the websites for proof, regarding their comments on Hinduism.
Look around this blog, there are Christist-Satanist-Devilist comments. There are blogs of you CSD Hindu-haters, lying and distorting our faith.

>>>> I havent generalized Hindus in any of my posts here.

You individually havent, but you have, you CSDs have done that.

Apart from that, you are defending the people who do. Many of you have. Again, why does this logic of one example against generalization not apply to us. ("Not all Hindus are bad", etc).

And now , you are justifying conversions. You dont support Bribed conversions ??? How much did the Portuguese pay you or your ancestors, pal. It is a fact that over 90% conversions ( and that is the worst estimate IMO, the real number would be higher ) are by bribery, force and miracle raising.

One more thing, I have a friend, who has a CSD friend in his home town. Close friend of his. Now, my friend once went to a temple, the CSD was along with him. I got into a discussion with my friend, and he told me this. Cool. Not every temple refuses entry to non-Hindus.

Another friend, with a CSD friend, was going somewhere, and he stopped at a temple. This CSD waited outside, and instead insulted my friend, when he came out, diplomatically trying to show Hinduism down, using sweet language. My friend accompanied him to church many a times(he was in a convent school, and fathers were known gays :D ) , without complaining and showing good regards to his faith.

Again you know what, I have seen this fundamentalist Christist mentality more amongst Indian CSDs rather than western CSDs(except perhaps Italy, and southern US), whom you try to follow. Most western Christians are much more liberal and truthful than you Indian CSDs are. Trying to be more like your western mentors, eh. Trying to be first class citizens of the Holy Roman Empire , is it.
Forget it, pal. You are probably gonna be shot down by a cop there, mistaken for an Arab or Paki.

My dad had a friend called Alexander from Kerala, when I was very young, early school days. He went to US, and got a job there. He talked about discrimination in daily life. He said, they dont consider that you are Christian.

Kalyani, nothing about that sarcasm. that was toney, the christist-devilist-satanist, not me, who posted.

Toney said...

Dark Storm,
Your last statement reveals all...

As for me trying to be part of the Roman empire: in spite of all I say, you still havent got it that I am not Catholic.

How much did the Portuguese pay you or your ancestors
They converted (tired) the existing Orthodox church into Catholicism, burnt all the manuscripts (even had Peshito Bibles) and declared all the Orthodox practices pagan. This faith is what I belong to. Mate, if anyone should nurse a grudge towards Catholics, it is me and the Orthodox group who have taken over the ownership of the Church.
The Southern US that you so readily talk about in the US is an evangelical/protestant faith, again very different from Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
Anyhow, no hard feelings on my part.

Trying to be more like your western mentors, eh
If you cannot understand any of this in spite of me conveying this several times, well... Orthodoxy is not a western practice.

My dad had a friend called Alexander from Kerala,
Exactly which person from INdia is treated like kin in the US? Or Europe? Arent we equally guilty of racism, calling all whites firangis, goras etc?

Can you list out the Qs you have? One of them might be about idol worship. The difference is this: Catholics keep idols of saints in their churches. Orthodox people dont. Period. Catholics are not supposedto worship them but yes, over the years, they have started doing that. Officially, they are not supposed to. The Orthodox peoplekeep a wooden cross in the church (dont know abt Catholics). This is only in memory of the cross used for crucifix. Again, this is NOT to be considered an object of worship.
I honestly dont care abouot what Hindus do in this respect. I am curious to know, of course but it doesnt make a difference.

And now , you are justifying conversions.
Always, if, as I mentioned before, they are done out of true faith and not for any other reason. How about you? Are you against such conversions?

Most western Christians are much more liberal and truthful than you Indian CSDs are.
Really? So we all know who amongst us actually fell for the polite West! I'll give you one example: one of my office mates once remarked how Islamic fundamentalism is growing all over Europe and cited that Christians in Southern US are not bad in this respect either. Now sit back and listen to his final sentence -- "I cannot believe that the cultured West is doing what the under developed countries are doing." This was said in the presence of three Indians including myself. This is their general attitude to all east of Turkey. I used to find it irritating to begin with but now I find it amusing because it is based on ignorance more than anything else.

Toney said...

"They converted (tired) the existing Orthodox church into Catholicism, burnt all the manuscripts (even had Peshito Bibles) and declared all the Orthodox practices pagan. This faith is what I belong to. Mate, if anyone should nurse a grudge towards Catholics, it is me and the Orthodox group who have taken over the ownership of the Church."

Meant it like this:
They converted (tried) the existing Orthodox church into Catholicism, burnt all the manuscripts (even had Peshito Bibles) and declared all the Orthodox practices pagan. This faith is what I belong to. Mate, if anyone should nurse a grudge towards Catholics, it is me and the Orthodox group who know that the Catholics have taken over the ownership of the Church.

DarkStorm said...

Toney,

(Tired). I cannot keep repeating my posts. Just read the thread , you will find many of my valid questions.

Ok, you dont keep idols in your Orthodox church(That is news to me). But you keep the cross.

Isnt that a symbol, a representation. Just like our statues made of stone, metal, wood, whatever. If you dont worship the cross, we dont worship the stone either. You stand in front of the cross and kneel down to pray. Substitute that cross with the stone, and it is us. You sing hymns in Latin which you dont really understand, but get the gist. Substitute Latin with Sanskrit and it is us. We dont understand Sanskrit either, but we get the gist.

You saw us standing before the idols and assumed we worship idols. We saw you standing before the cross, statues of Jesus and Mary, kissing the feet of Jesus on the cross, we assumed you are idol worshippers. Fair deal isnt it?

>>>>Always, if, as I mentioned before, they are done out of true faith and not for any other reason

Okay, if done for true faith. Well, those cases are very rare. What do you think. A very optimistic(for you) estimate would be 10% out of true faith, rest by dubious means.
We have people going both ways actually. Hindus dont go out to convert. If anyone wants to, he is welcome. No bribery, no coercion, except those *reconversion* drives by VHP, for those illiterate tribals. Also, if you think you are improving lives of tribals by conversion, the South American tribals are a prime example of this not being the case.

The westerners really dont care, except a radical fringe out there. They probably abuse Christists much more than we do. And anti-Christ rock sells like hot cakes. Atleast, I have found them much more liberal than Indian CSDs, though they may be Dogmatists. (BTW, what about 13 being unlucky, or 666 being devils number. Talk about Hindus being superstitious pagans :)) ).

>>>> Arent we equally guilty of racism, calling all whites firangis, goras etc?
That is giving back what they gave us. I told you racism is everywhere, and not the fault of Hinduism, as you implied all along.

DarkStorm said...

Let us consider a hypothetical scenario. Suppose, we are a dying people, cornered, and we are given a choice to convert to either Jehadi-Piggism or Christism. India becomes 80% Christist. Now, do you think caste wars and discrimination will go away. I dont think so. So isnt Christism lying when they sell this to the people.

>>>>Again, this is NOT to be considered an object of worship.
I honestly dont care abouot what Hindus do in this respect.

Yes, you do care, hence your posts. Read them again. If you dont care, then why do you have to speak against it. You dont care and you dont know either. You just have to deride someone, so lets make it Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists, Taos. You cannot do it to jehadis, or you will be wiped out in this part of the world.

And really, neither do I really care about the fine distinctions between Orthodoxes and Catholics. A great difference indeed - we keep only cross, they keep cross+other stuff. LOL. Does that cross have an idol of Jesus on it or not. :D


>>>>> The Orthodox peoplekeep a wooden cross in the church (dont know abt Catholics). This is only in memory of the cross used for crucifix. Again, this is NOT to be considered an object of worship.


Desperately trying to prove you are not idol worshippers, eh :)).

Ok tell me whats wrong with idol worship, except that it is written in the Bible, so it must be true. But then Bible also says whole of Mankind descended from Adam and Eve. Arent we distant cousins then, and you are going against us. Very bad.. thats very bad. Sigghhss.

Okay, now we have whole lot of posts by Rajeev here, exposing Christists-Satanists-Devilists. (Thanks to some loose-nut in some other post, :) he gave me many synonyms for Christists). What about Sabarimala. Is that a lie ??

>>>> Really? So we all know who amongst us actually fell for the polite West!

Ohh definitely not you, wannabe-whites. Well, we never had anything to do with them before colonization, except ancient trade in sailboats. So we were fooled by them, as the rest of the non-white world was.


What casteism do you keep parroting. The community to which I belong has no caste system. No so-called Brahmins and no so-called Shudras. And we are Hindus. YOu fail to see that. You would see a fringe element drinking cow urine and label all of us cow-urine drinkers. You would see a fringe element eating beef and call everyone of us cow-eaters and hypocrites. You would see fringe elements indulging in caste discrimination and label all of us as casteists. You have all such shortcomings. We see you as homosexuals, paedophiles, born of rape and incest, petty criminals, sorcerers, idol worshippers, intolerants.

Is it ever going to stop.

DarkStorm said...

>>>> The westerners really dont care, except a radical fringe out there. They probably abuse Christists much more than we do. And anti-Christ rock sells like hot cakes. Atleast, I have found them much more liberal than Indian CSDs, though they may be Dogmatists. (BTW, what about 13 being unlucky, or 666 being devils number. Talk about Hindus being superstitious pagans :)) ).




Again, I elaborate. As of now, most of the westerners are not really religious. and they really dont bother about religion, any religion for that matter.

They may be religious and fundamentalist, but not as much as the Indian CSDs.

It does not matter that CSDism is a faith from the western lands. The grouse most Hindus have against CSDism is not that they are not native religions, or that they are foreign faiths, but it is the attacks against us. You wont see westerners attacking Hindu religion as much as Indian CSDs do. they are probably more discriminatory on racist grounds, rather than religious grounds.

they wont wish Hinduism well, but then they wont wish bad for Hinduism, as much as Indian CSDs will. The ill-will harboured against Hinduism by Indian CSDs is much more than westerners have.

DarkStorm said...

you know what , we Hindus have a tendency to generalize the good rather than the bad.

it is something like you see casteism practiced by some lunatics, and you generalize all Hindus are casteists.
when we see a good Christian, we say, "Well, Christians are good people, see for example, this person called XYZ. ". it is like "Hey not all Christians are bad".
This is something never seen in you CSDs. All this 50 years of secularism and goodwill has been met by slander and killings. See the dust raised by you , when Staines was killed.
Nobody bothers about Hindus killed, converted by CSDs. If someone amongst us is bothered, we become fundamentalist, casteists, bigots, etc and last of all Nazi (Nazis were CSDs by the way :)) ). Godwins laws. Call someone a Nazi, and the discussion becomes chaos. It is like the ultimate insult, and no amount of reasoning can bring it back.

Kalyani said...

Anonymous,

The one who has patiently addressed phoneytonie ...."Looks like you have not realised......your game is up":-

Excellent!I have lost what little patience I had and am AOL (arrrrrrrghing
out loud)nowadays and the 'sinners' responsible are phoneytoniesanthonies!!Beware!!

Thou shall not engage us in silly arguments.

Thou shall give up this posturing of wanting to know about OhmigawdGod.

Thou shall read and ruminate over the ratiocination of noble Hindus including ex devil worshippers who take time to untiringly and wearisomely bludgeon some sense into your antivedic numbskulls.

Thou shall not type back "which noble Hindu ...which comment...point out learned Kalyani...."

If you watch Hollywood movies good!Thou shall watch and enjoy Godfather 3(first,followed by 2 and 1 may be)Thou shall watch Simon Birch and many more,I am sure Darkstorm and others can suggest lots of movies etc.

Thou shall follow at least this counsel.

See, ain't we more compassionate?

Thou shall rewind and rewind and rewind to watch (in Godfather 3)how the nincompooop gets killed.