Friday, October 21, 2005

economist: matrimonials and the online world; the persistence of caste

oct 21st

why on earth do people think traditions can be that easily destroyed by globalization?

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5069006

i think a lot of processes in india have evolved over long periods to suit local conditions; therefore they survive and thrive. a good example is caste. i personally think caste is a good thing, although casteism is not.

caste exists in all societies and has always existed but has been called other things. for instance, WASPs are the top caste in the us, followed by jews and catholics. arabs come last in the white hierarchy, but they are all higher castes than all brown, black, yellow, and red people. a good indication of this is the proliferation of korean, chinese, indian and other christist churches in the us. all these 'lower-castes' feel like second-class citizens in the WASP churches. and oh by the way, if you don't believe that caste exists in the us, and you are a brown indian, try to marry one of the high-caste catholics, say the kennedys. you won't get very far, guaranteed.

among mohammedans, the untouchables are women. the bottom castes are subcontinentals; above them are malay and indonesians; then persians and other whites esp. blond ones; arabs are the top caste. among arabs, the prophet's tribe are the top caste; among them, his family members, etc. there is a very clear hierarchy.

among marxists, casteism and sexism are very high. they are probably the most casteist and sexist people in india. otherwise, name one indian chief minister who was a marxist woman. the best candidate was k r gowri in kerala, acknowledged widely as perhaps the most able leader among marxists. and she is an OBC ezhava as well, and ezhavas are the marxists' base. but whenever it came time to appoint a chief minister, it was always a 'high-caste' male who got the nod. similarly, in bengal, the 'high-caste' marxist leaders do not give a damn to the atrocities perpetrated on 'low-caste' people -- for instance the burning alive of a harijan non-marxist last year, or the continuous pogroms against them by mohammedans in bangladesh.

i think, to echo what jesus allegedly said: 'let them who are not sinners cast the first stone'. everyone is a sinner. caste is about as human as race is, and it cannot be eradicated.

103 comments:

Anonymous said...

"I personally think caste is a good thing, although casteism is not"
Could you elaborate on this please?
Gopal

Davidar said...

The article proves nothing, just that people who demand a subcaste marriage will flock to the net. One should see all the intercaste marriages in Delhi Mumbai Bangalore to know that things are changing...japan lost its caste system in two generations. economic independence for women is what will matter.

Like a typical right wing Hindu, you make caste a universal problem. But nowhere in the US do the lower castes get the shit kicked out of them for playing cricket, entering temples, nor do they get burnt alive, raped, spit on...nor is there a big conversion movement to other religions.

and to think, being a Nair, you are the product of a concumbine and a Namboodiri who was kind enough to spill his seed on your grandmother! Beautiful Hindu culture and caste system you uphold there.


asshole...

DarkStorm said...

So , who advocates conversions here. Can any Christian or Muslim here care to answer. Does conversion provide salvation. I believe you just change your set of beliefs, by converting(or raise /lower your level of intolerance). You exchange one set of truth and lies for another set of truth and lies.
Do you think converting will take you to the heavens, or provide salvation or give you 77 young boys (and in very few cases, 77 virgins). Then why are Muslim Dalits claiming backward caste status, and Christians called Dalits. I thought there is no caste system in mono-theistic religions. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with worshipping idols. Dont Christians worship idols of Jesus (seen in churches), or the wooden cross. Dont Muslims pray to a stone building in some desert of arabia. Isnt there a stone box (or whatever it is ), covered with green cloth in mosques, which muslims worship.


Any Christian or Muslim care to answer. Muslims please dont quote the Kuran verses while answering. You yourselves are divided amongst yourselves what it means.

Sameer said...

Davidar is like that typical marxist/christist person who goes crying caste... whenever someone praises India.

Hey Rajeev, Your blogs unmask every marxist/christist but havent touched another idiot... his name is Kancha Iliah, well, maybe the bastard is not that big enough, his articles appear in Deccan chronicle... they are highly poisnous... well, I also saw him on TV.. guess where.. NDTV, the bastion of marxists...

Anyway, he wrote a idiotic book also....

Forget it.. just bash that bugger some time... we will enjoy reading it...

Rajeev, go ahead, good work, ignore all the commies.... and pseudos...

DarkStorm said...

davidar,

good if they are changing. :)

Nizhal Yoddha, please clarify your point regarding casteism and caste, otherwise there are people who would post lot of such stuff.

Dric said...

Rajeev,

You have put it correctly.For some people who didnt get it:

Caste is good coz it gives a sense of identity and acts as safety net.

Casteism is bad coz it denies basic human dignity and respect to some sections of society.

Even after a 1000 years there will be divisions in society: as you said it is the reflection of human traits.

Utopian concepts of marxism and other cults will only remain a dream.(Though they will try hard to shove these inanities down our throats every now and then!!)

Shankar said...

Christist Jehadees like Davidar cannot digest TRUTH. Hey Davidar, read Dav Vinci code and realize the lies of Church.
Church support casteism in a big way. Harijans have separate cemetry in all catholic churches. Harijans have to stay back in their masses. How many Orthodox christians(Central travancore Nairs forcefully converted) marry Latin christians (neo-dalit converts) formally?
Even if they do , isnt there a intra-conversion to one caste?

Yes Marxists do love, adore casteism. It is the basis of their very survival. How many backward CM's they had. In Kerala they love to back-stab the backwards like VS. Kerala hitler-EMS had a venemous hatred for back-wards. Whenever CPM rules, they destroy numerous temples dedicated to Saint Narayana guru. bUT See how they are barking now when some christist mafia(encouraged by CPM liqor-spirit lobby) attacked a Bishop's house in TVPM?

Davidar is another inferior christist 'dravidian' who cannot compete among the better brains. So like Kancha Illaiah and other jehadees like Valson Thampu , he wants some attention being a loser.
Accept the facts, dear. Your language itself shows your Sunday school culture.

Hey hey ..do you know coastal 'dravidians' were plundered, looted and raped well (your great-grandmother included) by the portugeese, french and your granny had to 'convert' and be a low-class catholic forever. You have proved that Portugese seed is inferior here.

Shankar said...

SAVE KERALA: Needed a broad unity to fight the british/portugese/Arab fanatics.

http://www.nairs.org/articles/Needed_nair_ezhava_hindu_mahasammelanam.html

Anonymous said...

I agree with Rajeev. I think he's saying that just as race is an accepted fact, caste is also a reality. Caste reflects the Bell Curves in physical and mental capabilities. Some are short, some tall, some medium. Some are smart, some dumb, some in-between. Caste seems to be the acceptance that these differences exist.

Casteism, if I read Rajeev right, is the system of discriminating against people based on differences. Accepting differences is fine, but putting people down based on these differences is not fine.

To give you an example, you might conclude assume that Davidar is a scumbag low-caste convert to Christianity with a chip in his shoulder. That is caste. You might discriminate against him and deny him a job because you assume he is an idiot because he has shown he is a scumbag low-caste convert to Christianity. That would be casteism. But in this case it may be a reasonable assumption.

DarkStorm said...

Once, again, by using words like dravidian, we are indirectly accepting AIT. Aryan and dravid theories are a hoax, repeatedly proven.

Davidar,
well we are moving ahead to remove casteism. It had reduced quite a lot, until your marxist friends via weepy sing (is he some descendent of traitor par excellence, Jaichand) invoked it again. Realize that , marxists are the biggest proponents of AIT, casteism. if it dies, they loose existence, and thus cannot satisfy their thirst for power. marxists would create caste divisions even amongst muslims and christians to further their nefarious motives.

Anonymous said...

Castes in India, in some sense, portray a division of labour as it existed in old times. Divisions exist in all sufficiently large groups - whether a group represents a religion, or a country, a state, or even a Club. People tend to gravitate towards and mix with others having same/similar means and lifestyles.

Casteism is an unfortunate continuation of old divisions which are no longer relevant.

Imagine four families, two fully vegetarians, and two non-veg. It is inevitable that the food choice will have a bearing on their interaction. Other characteristics/choices will have a similar effect.

If any one or two of the four begin to believe that they are superior, that is the onset of casteism .. I would think. My two cents.

Anonymous said...

Davidar, factual error. Low caste blacks have been terrorized, raped, burned alive, starved to death, etc. in the US for a long time. They have been hanged for the crime of looking at a white woman. We all saw what happened to blacks (the lowest castes of America) during Katrina.

Similar things have happened to Chinese, Hispanics, Japanese. Low caste (yellow) Japanese were put into prison camps during World War II, but high caste (white) Germans were not.

A lot of blacks (low castes) are converting to Islam.

So all your factual assertions are wrong. Also, Rajeev Srinivasan is not a Nair. Just look at the name. That is not a Nair name.

You must be an inferior, semi-literate Marxist pretending to be a Nadar Christian to create trouble. You are probably Maoputra.

DarkStorm said...

anonymous said ---------
I think he's saying that just as race is an accepted fact, caste is also a reality. Caste reflects the Bell Curves in physical and mental capabilities. Some are short, some tall, some medium. Some are smart, some dumb, some in-between. Caste seems to be the acceptance that these differences exist.
------------------

Differences exist. But do you think a child of dumb parents cannot be intelligent, or intelligent parents cannot have a dumb child. Caste now forces them into an image. Which again is bad. Caste is ok to some extent, but even that is to be taken very lightly, perhaps much less seriously than we take some page3 astrologers tarot or star readings in papers.

Yes, it happens that different people have different levels, physical or mental. caste puts a label on someone, even though it might not be true. You might not discriminate, but you will always have that in the back of your mind (that is a SC OBC guy, so... ) . caste by birth is again casteism. I guess thats what Rajeev meant. caste based discrimination and caste by birth are casteism.

DarkStorm said...

Hey, where is kalyani.

Kalyani isnt posting for a long time. Whats wrong.

Anonymous said...

Rajeev, I am disappointed that a man of such scientific inclination as yours can say caste is a good thing - and I don't mean it from the point of view of any political correctness. Any sort of caste System and certainly casteism would be to the detriment of human evolution. I challenge you to defend your view on the basis of theory of evolution.

nizhal yoddha said...

hi folks, i guess i do agree with what some of you have suggested is my perspective on caste. i think caste is merely a categorization of the inherent differences we have. vive la difference, as they say: isn't it fortunate that we are all not the same? it would be so boring otherwise!

in fact, i think caste just *is*, perhaps we cannot put a value judgement on it and say it is good or bad. similarly, race *is*. is that good or bad? we can't help it, it is a fact of life.

incidentally, it has been proven that race is sort of meaningless: most 'white' people have a lot of 'black' genes and vice versa. this of course is because of the fabulous human migration all the way from africa to india to southeast asia and then back through india east to tibet and east asia and also west to central asia and europe. there is practically only 0.001% genetic difference between 'races'. so is race a fact of life? if so, then i claim similarly, based on differences in capability, caste is also a fact of life.

casteism is hiearchy and rigidity and discrimination/oppression. if we can accept that all castes are more or less the same and that you can even migrate from one to the other based on your guna and karma (after all that is the basis of the Lord's creation of chaturyvanyam in the Gita) then there is no big deal.

the issue is that rigidity, descent by birth and 'upper' and 'lower' have been imposed on the caste system, partly due to internal degeneration over time, but about 70% of the blame goes to the british. they decided, without any particular data or logic, that caste was hereditary and that the manusmrti defined the hierarchy.

this is bullshit. manusmrti was one man's opinion, and has no more validity than rajeevsmrti if i were to write one. it was the british who decided that it was the word of god (they were into other alleged words of alleged gods, after all, cant blame the poor ignorant dears :-)

i dont know about 'scientific' in the context of evolution. it's not clear to me how caste hurts evolution. in general diversity is good and that is a fundamental axiom of evolution. if it wasn't, evolution would come to a grinding halt, as everything would be assumed to be perfect without need for improvement. so it's good to have different races, so i suppose it's good to have different cates as well. but i think caste and evolution are not related.

Anonymous said...

If we read our ithihasas and puranas objectively, we will see that caste was a social security system. There was nothing preventing the evolution of any individual to attain godhead. Therefore anyone can become a brahmin (one who realizes God) by thougts and actions. One who is born to a person who has realized God (that is a brahmin) can become a non-brahmin my virtue of actions and thoughts. So please let us not confuse the intent of caste with the practice today. Caste therefore was good but the practice of casteism (for vested interest) is bad, just as christism and islamism is bad for society!!

Instead of finding fault with Hindu practices, I suggest that christists and islamists correct their own systems from outdated and outmoded practices and ills, while Hindus will work towards correcting thier own ills -- don't simply potificate and preach onto others what you cannot practice. If christism is so good, look at the miseries in South and Central America, in Africa and other non-white christism countries!! If islamism is so good check out the muslim world and see where they stand today vis-a-vis the white and/or anglo-saxon christism countries!! Wake up you coloured christists and islamists -- you are being suckered into enslavement by the whites and lighter shades; they have done such a marketing job on you folks that you cannot even think for yourselves. The local browns are really your bretheren, so don't turn against them, turn against those who turned you against your own brothers and sisters, therein lies all our salvation!! Say no to white propaganda, enough of this hate, enough of this violence, enough of this ignorance!!

Christians and Muslims of India, you have chosen your "Ishta Devata", Hindus have thiers. Let us respect one another and enjoy our common ancestory, don't look to the foreingers for salvation, they have only given our society misery, our history is a testament to that!! Let us interospect and correct out own follies without trying to force a point of view on the others -- that is undemocratic. Most important of all, let us all abide by the law of our land as the only legal recourse, let us respect our flag, our people and our soil above everything else.

Jai Hind!

DarkStorm said...

Most important of all, let us all abide by the law of our land as the only legal recourse

Yes, anonymous I agree with your immediately above post. But, the law of the land is biased in favour of mooslimes and Christists.

Davidar said...

You guys all come out defending caste, as typical right wingers thats what one can expect. So rape, arson, conversions are all common eh? Nice way to dismiss problem. Anyone here been to tamil nadu recently and see what your indifferenc has wrought? Easily 20% Chistian,may be more


This guy is Nair--he has said so before, he can acknowledge.

Even VHP acknowledged Hindus treat Dalits like shit scum.

As for Brahmin Shankar who cast aspersions on Nadars, Id rather havea healhty mix of ancestors than being inbred like you brahmins, where 1% turn out intelligent and 99% clinically retarded. You are going way of Parses. Keep fighting for Hindu "unity" what a laugh

Anonymous said...

Davidar,

There is a disctinction between caste and casteism as has been pointed out by readers and the author on this forum.

First we must stop classifying Hindus as upper-castes, Dalits and Harijans etc (even Bharathiyar has said that elevating and relegating castes is wrong). Dalits are Hindus, period. Once we realize that we are all Hindus, then the wall of suspicion and hate will crumble. Then we can find answers to our problems through discussion, dialogue, and outreach. But as long as we maintain the wall of suspicion and hatread amongst people in society, the beneficieries will be the christits and islamists, who thrive on hate and division (wow, 20%+ of Christians in TN, thanks for the information)!

If you are Hindu, please work to correct the ills within Hindu tradition, instead of creating noise. If you are not, please work to correct the ills within your faith, you have no business promoting hate amongst Hindus - we will fix our problems quicker without your interference.

Shankar said...

Look who's more bothered about caste here - Davidar himself! He has branded the author as a 'Nair', and now he's calling me a 'brahmin'.
This exposes your intellectual level,Portugese seed

Anonymous said...

Saw this interesting link in the telegraph about an imam blaming cable TV for the recent earthquakes in remote NWFP.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1051022/asp/foreign/story_5385682.asp

Rajeev,
Not to nitpick but to echo what Jesus allegedly said!!! I know you have issues with every faith coming from outside India but just as a challenge, can you post something that Jesus said whereby he meant that all the non believers would end up in hell? Or that the believers should kill all the non-believers?
My aim is just to find the source of your animosity towards Christianity. If your issue is with Christians who forcibly convert gullible people or with Christians in the West (and maybe in India too) who think of their religion as "superior", why take it out on the religion or on Christ itself?

Before you try to assume that I may be a Christian, let me clarify. I am a Christian and a Keralite. I belong to the Syrian Orthodox sect. As far as I know, the first Middle Eastern Xians who fled from Jewish persectuon to Kerala were welcomed by the local rulers and peole. In fact, there wasnt any problem with conversions (I dont claim to be a "Syrian descendant" as the Canaanites in Keral do :) ) or with the different faiths until the Portuguese came and tried to convert the Syrian Orthodox Christians to Catholic faith. They also tried to convert the Hindu population to their version of Christianity. Even today, as you might be able to find out, the two main divisions in Orthodox Christians in Kerala hardly have problems with Hindus or Muslims (unlike the Protestant or Catholic churches). The reason why I wrote this boring introduction of sorts is to try to explain that there are good and bad apples everywhere. Even if 99% are bad apples (or even 100%), it doesnt make any religion less holy. So whats the point in trying to dub the entire Christian community under one title?

A couple of clarifications:
LOL on somebody raising the Da Vinci Code and saying that Christianity is false based on this book. All those who have read the book will understand that Dan Brown has based his entire book based on the belief that there are only two divisions in Christianity - Catholics and Protestant, which in itslef is a huge flaw. Anybody can make conspiracies out of facts in history. Does Max Muller proposing the Aryan invasion theory make it true?
And one more thing that I have seen being raised in such sites - the crusades were started (as I understand) in the 11th century. So there was a millenium of relative peace after Christianity came into being. This in spite of Jewish persecution. So all cannot be wrong with Christianity, right? Not trying to convert any of you, :), just trying to show that the entire Christian community may not have been responsible for the crusades. And in any case, Christ never asked believers to slaughter all non believers.

Also one final question to knowledgeable Hindus (rest, please ignore). I was talking to one of my friends some time ago about conversion and of course, he was incensed at all the rubbish that goes on in the tribal areas (Xian conversion). I asked him about whether it was possible for a person of another faith, say myself, to convert to Hinduism. To which he said, no. As per him, a person who is not Hindu by birth can never ever be a Hindu. I am not raising this to provoke any anger amongst some of you, just need to clarify this.

Ps: I wouldnt mind signing in and displaying my name but honestly, I dont know what the response to this will be. I havent intended any kind of malice in my post, pelase take it in the right sense.

Anonymous said...

"If your issue is with Christians who forcibly convert gullible people or with Christians in the West (and maybe in India too) who think of their religion as "superior", why take it out on the religion or on Christ itself?"

Dear Anon,

The fundamentals of Christ's teachings are profound and sublime -- no reasonable person will disagree.

'When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.' --Bishop Desmond Tutu

Just as other religions, Christ has been used as an industry by christists to wreak havoc in societies, and to further their sinister plans of hegemony and control over the colored folks. It is with them that most have a problem (and I am sure the author has a problem). How can people forget the inqusitions of Goa, the atrocities of the Portugese, the missionaries from Australia and NZ (who have converted the NE and created so much of hate)? This campaign continues today and corroborated by our friend Davidar who claims 20%+ conversion in TN! Has there been an apology from the church, just as the Pope's apology to Israel and the Jewish people? On the other hand the revered Pope comes to India to advocate harvesting of souls! Isn't is dispecable to hear the term "harvesting", as though humans are commodities (perhaps coloured ones are in the eyes of the christists)?

I shall never denounce the teachings of Christ -- "Ekam sath vipra Bahuda Vadanthi" (the one truth is described in many ways by the wise) as Sri Adi Sankara adviced us. It is this acceptance and tolerance that makes Hindus especially vulnerable but it is balanced voices such as yours that gives me the strength to realize that India will be a model society for the world.

A American professor went to India disillusioned with christism, seeking enlightenment in Hindu Dharma. He met a sadhu in some remote place and asked him what he can do to follow Hindu Dharma. The sadhu asked him to which religious tradition he belonged to. When the professor explained it was Christianity, the sadhu then asked him for the reason for the desire for Hindu Dharma. When explained that he was disgusted with the industry of christism, the sadhu asked the professor, what was important, whether the message of Christ or the "messenger(s)" of Christ. The professor was enlightened and he practices Christ's message, today.

The problem today are the messenger(s) of christ -- they are the christists, with doles and mandate from foreign countries, trying hard at destabilizing the country with hate mongering and defaming Hindu Dharma -- the same Dharma that gave refuge to the Syrian Christians, Jews, Parsees, etc., for all those who sought refuge from persecution. Today there is a very well organized and sophisticated campaign to destroy such a Hindu Dharma. The seeds were sown during colonial times but actively perpetuated by present day unscroupulous politicians (nexus of atheists, christists, marxists, mullahs), who have complete control over the institutions and who effectively manipulate constitutional and legal loopholes. The collective aim is to destroy Hindu Dharma, then to play out the crusades will to determine the supremacy of which abrahamic relogion!

Yes, Hindus have their problems (casteism being one) and it is the Hindus who should resolve those between them, why do they need the enlightnement from third parties, especially when the third parties have so much to fix within thier communities!

We all have to be vigilant! Our collective destiny is under serious threat from these christists and islamists!

PS: I apologize to all for the bandwidth, will stick to the topic on hand in future.

Raghu said...

Anonymous, Hindus (most) are not at all against Christianity. As a matter of fact they are not against any religion. For all our defects, we Hindus believe God is one and He can be reached in any way. For us, religion is not destination in itself(God). It's only a path. That's why you might have never heard any Hindu saying his religion is great. Not even so-called fundamentalist Togadia will say that. All we are pained at is in India, in the name of minoritysm and secularism, Hindus are being shortchanged. The reason no one can be converted to Hinduism is exactly this. If Hindus start converting, it contradicts their whole philosophy that every religion is true. The great Swami Vivekananda himself revered Christ so much that he carried just two books when he was wandering India - Gita and Imitation of Christ. He used Bible when he was teaching(preaching) religion in the West.

Anonymous said...

This particular debate captures the essence of what is wrong with the democracy in India. I am not one of those fake marxists nor I can say that I am one of the mudslinging right wingers.
You want as much monolithism as the marxist-leninists themselves( (you also want monolithism in hindu thought, which by its evolution is not possible).and there can never be a healthy debate, only personal attacks.
and more over,I am beginning to feel that the right wingers in India,are more consumed by their rage against the left wing cabal than the validity of their thoughts and ideas.
its time someone should think of the present situation in india (in a proactive way )as a chance to attempt winnning the battle of ideas. if you think that you have ideas both good and valid, and the politics in india is screwed up, then blame it (atleast partly) on yourself. because your hate/rage against the marxists wont win you followers, peeople will listen to you only if you can articulate it better.not when the debate is screwed up like how it is now
Gopal

DarkStorm said...

To the anon syrian christian --
anon said:
can you post something that Jesus said whereby he meant that all the non believers would end up in hell? Or that the believers should kill all the non-believers?


That is what i think is good about Christism, unlike Islamists. No talk of killing and slaughtering goats and humans.

anon said:
If your issue is with Christians who forcibly convert gullible people or with Christians in the West (and maybe in India too) who think of their religion as "superior",

Now you are talking like an Islamist. They talk the same. They all want to kill Hindus and you, Christians too. But they will say, hey why dont you go to the mullah who kills and converts, dont think all of us are like that. :)

why take it out on the religion or on Christ itself?
Dont you guys take out your frustation and everything wrong with your lives, on Hinduism.

I dont claim to be a "Syrian descendant" as the Canaanites in Keral do :)
Poor canaanites. Like all Muslims in Sindh claim descent from some unknown arab who had conquered a portion of Sindh. Poor guys. Did not know how all population of Muslim Sindh comes from one person. Also explains their lunacy. ( I must say, that Hindu Sindhis are the natives of that place and much different from them , not related to them in any way).

Even if 99% are bad apples (or even 100%), it doesnt make any religion less holy.
Why does this logic not apply to us. Amongst us Hindus, why not to Dalits or Brahmins.

So whats the point in trying to dub the entire Christian community under one title?
The point is that our entire community too is dubbed the same way. I felt sad when Staines died, but now I think he deserved a worse death, for bribing for conversions, and blackmailing .Ok, convert to christianity or we not gonna give you medicines. You might say, anyway, he was goin to die, but is the convert clause necessary. Do you think , that by harvesting souls by bribery and coercion is a good idea. And the kind of souls who would give in to bribery and corruption. Is that what your religion teaches you.

[Da Vinci code stuff]Does Max Muller proposing the Aryan invasion theory make it true? No, but it has almost become the truth, by repeated assertion. Why does the same logic not apply to us, when you guys trash Hinduism as myths and paganism. Remember , Jesus said - Dont do unto others, what you dont want others to do unto you. And not allegedly. He did say that. In simple language. Da Vinci code, forget it. We have had more slander against us coming from you, and more from mullahs.

just trying to show that the entire Christian community may not have been responsible for the crusades. It was a justified fight, I believe. But you have lost the morals of the Crusades.

As per him, a person who is not Hindu by birth can never ever be a Hindu. Note as per him. And no, you can if you want to, but there is no need to, there is no compulsion. We accept your faith, in turn , we expect the same.

I havent intended any kind of malice in my post, pelase take it in the right sense I can see that. Good. Neither have I. Strong language in places, but this is how I feel, and most of us feel. Right when we were cleaning up the mess of casteism after 40 years of independence , you jump in and create trouble, along with marxists and weepy sing.

You can come out with your real name. No one, atleast not I, will abuse, unless you do.

DarkStorm said...

I had earlier said
So , who advocates conversions here. Can any Christian or Muslim here care to answer. Does conversion provide salvation. I believe you just change your set of beliefs, by converting(or raise /lower your level of intolerance). You exchange one set of truth and lies for another set of truth and lies.
Do you think converting will take you to the heavens, or provide salvation or give you 77 young boys (and in very few cases, 77 virgins). Then why are Muslim Dalits claiming backward caste status, and Christians called Dalits. I thought there is no caste system in mono-theistic religions. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with worshipping idols. Dont Christians worship idols of Jesus (seen in churches), or the wooden cross. Dont Muslims pray to a stone building in some desert of arabia. Isnt there a stone box (or whatever it is ), covered with green cloth in mosques, which muslims worship.


Any Christian or Muslim care to answer. Muslims please dont quote the Kuran verses while answering. You yourselves are divided amongst yourselves what it means.


Anon christian from keral. Can you please answer this. Valid questions. Point me out if I am wrong anywhere. Thanx.

DarkStorm said...

anon christian from keral :

Can you go ahead and freely practice your religion even in USA. Or Italy., leave alone Saudi Arabia. Man, you are treated like second class citizens in US, even though you are christians. Here, atleast you have respect and freedom. Dont lose it over trivial matters like harvesting souls. It is going to land you up nowhere.

DarkStorm said...

anon christian from keral :

The other anonymous who has talked at length on "Christism industry" , raises valid points. This is the reason for the friction.

Anyway,
this christism business is so prevelent all over the country now, that whenever I and my friends meet a Christian, we wonder " Guess how much was he paid to convert and abuse us " . And we think, the whiter the soul, the more the money given. :) . It is not the truth, we all know. But it has become a serious problem, for you and me. Does not do your image and respect any good, neither do we can tolerate such abuse any longer.

DarkStorm said...

because your hate/rage against the marxists wont win you followers, peeople will listen to you only if you can articulate it better.

Very true Gopal. We have the facts, we have the numbers, we have the people with clear thought and articulate speech. But we are demonized by the likes of NDTV and TimesOfIndia. Our voice is never heard, the 50% like minded people like us. (Assuming 30% population of India, amongst Hindus, has been taken in by the secular progressive liberals, marxists and mullahs) It is like we do not belong to India. Our opinions and thoughts are suppressed.
The govt machinery seems to be dominated by the likes of lalloos and paswans and sonias. (Does it get any more depressing ) .

DarkStorm said...

anon from keral:

Can you tell me why did you oppose tooth and nail, when anti-conversion laws were proposed. Were it the missionaries / christist sellers who opposed ? I think it was the Christian community of India who opposed.

DarkStorm said...

Also, I too read about the link anon from keral posted. And think about it, some people actually handed over their TVs to the mullah :)) LMAO.

The mullah must have made a neat profit selling them off to slum dwellers in karachi and lahore, at second hand rates

Anonymous said...

Friends,

I have often come across these 2 questions when I start discussing with my Hindu friends about the threat of harvest-hungry Christists in India (which I consider worse than the Jehadi Muslims, they are easily identified, harvest hungry Christists are not and advance their agenda in a more sophisticated manner). Now the questions:

1. Hinduism lived well for so long - over 10000 years amongst worse threats, adversaries and persecutors. It will live well without our losing our sleep over it.

Another version of the above that I hear:

2. Christists convert- So what, if it is not by violence (inducements are okay since it fills a need- sometimes this point itself throws me into a big sidetracked discussion)?
20% converted - so what?
Everyone will get converted- so what?
You will lose touch with the past- So what?
You will lose your culture- so what (cuture dynamic, changed all the time etc)?
Others can then easily conquer and enslave you- this happened even when Hinduism was alive and well, so where is the culture coming in?
....and it goes on and I begin feel like I am trying to fight a shadow or somehow not articulating my point well.

I want to hear from my fellow travellers here, so I can effectively articulate answers to these questions. Appreciate any thoughts.

Anonymous said...

DarkStorm,

It's Kerala, not Keral.

indianpatriot said...

Let me bring my home state Karnataka here. It looks like Casteist Devegowda taking on Industry icon Narayana Murthy the coalition govt looks like is on its last legs. I read an article in Marxist Deccan Herald that the situation and casteist tensions (Between Gowdas, Lingayats and Ahinda (Siddaramaih who was deputy CM until recently) the Karnataka situation was very similar to Gujarat situation in late 80 and early 90s which made Gujarat BJP stronghold. If it holds true imagine a situation where Dravidian Karnataka ruled by Aryan BJP. Perfect way to demolish Aryan Invasion theorey. By the way Periyar was a Kannadiga, so is Jayalalitha. I read in local news papers BJP Sangarsha yatra is getting enthusiastic responce. Rajeev I like to take little bit of credit from Kerala. My home district South Kanara is 100 % literate, strong pro business, strong Hindu nationalistic and dare I say strong against missionary, mullah, marxist, mclay nexus.

Arvind said...

Anonymous Keralite Christian who asked, "can you post something that Jesus said whereby he meant that all the non believers would end up in hell? "

Yes, I can do that. If I do that, will you convert out of Christianity? I can also post a verse where Jesus defends the Old Testament. I shall post both verses if you tell me in advance what you plan to do with the data. If you are willing to convert out of Christianity and recognize that it is a barbaric cult, I will do so. Otherwise, it would be wasted effort.

I also know the standard excuse of Xians. They follow the New Testament, but not the Old Testament. BUT... when the 10 Commandments case was up for hearing, you should have seen the Christians defend it. Why are you intellectually dishonest and why don't you admit that most wars are caused by Christians who carry out what is said in the Old Testament?

BTW, if you are afraid of converting out of Christianity and getting back to your roots, don't be afraid. There are examples of people who have done that. One name that comes to mind is George Thundiparambil. He is a true hero!

sk said...

My thoughts:
I think justifying caste system, or saying it was for a purpose etc. makes you look defensive and conveys the wrong message. I don't know what it was for, how it came about, how it changed, etc. I don't think anyone who lives now knows these answers authoritatively or is going to convince others. Lets just accept it is wrong, it was/is a black spot on India/Hinduism and probably ONE big hindrance to India's progress and Hinduism's unity. So lets just remove it lock, stock and barrel. No ifs and buts, no justifications. A gordian-knot-cut kind of solution.

KapiDhwaja said...

Great strategy to deter islamic pigs

Link

mitra said...

Rajeev has once again taken the usual stand by justifying caste system.

He is also wrong when he says that 70% of caste problems is because of British.

Caste, in its present form, has existed atleast since the later Vedic. It was probably not present in earlier Vedic times. The "Purusha Sukta" of Rigved is accepted to be a later addition.Ramayana and Mahabharata , including Gita, do mention caste.

Rajeev is again wrong when he says that Manusmriti is unimportant. All smritis had religious sanction and authority. Different smritis were written for different purposes. Arthshastra was written for regulating secular matters like commerce. Manusmriti was written for regulating civil and criminal jurisprudence. It was "the" Civil and Criminal code bucause there was no secular law. It is for this reason that the British used it as a basis for writing "The Code of Gentoo Laws".

Going into the causes of present caste system is, to my mind, futile and purposeless. It does not matter as to who is responsible for the fossilised system that we find today. It also does not matter that Muslims and Christians too have a "sort of" caste system. Caste remains a major divisive factor for the Hindu society and it is we Hindus who have to reform it.

Electoral politics have enhanced Caste divisions. Come what may, this will persist till caste identities are diluted through process of intermarriage, urbanization and industrialization. However, it is important that caste should be removed from the spiritual domain too. After all , religion is a matter of spiritual domain. If we argue that caste in spiritual domain does not matter, then religion does not matter either. For this, symbolism is required

1. Priesthood should be opened for all castes.

2. Post of shankaracharya, priesthood of all dhams should be opened for all castes.

3. Even today, there are teachers who refuse to teach Vedanta to pupils who have not had Upanayana. This is because , such pupils are not authorised to read the Vedas. How can we expect Hindu Unity to come about if 90% Hindus are not allowed to read the basic teaxts.

4. The Brahmins have to take a lead in dissolving caste hierarchy.

I am heartened that the RSS has recently taken initiative to train OBC persons as priests in Rajasthan.

mitra said...

Are we Hindus going to let the ghosts of the past rule our present and future for all times to come. What is the point in saying that the Muslims and the British were responsible for the caste system. The British are gone. The Muslim rulers are gone. We are left holding the baby. So, shall we do something about it or just do our victim style chest beating as to how these muslims and British were such bad guys who distorted this absolutely-flexible-career-based-non-reliously-sanctioned-varna-system that we Hindus had.

I also find this paranoia regarding AIT to be such a farce. Is our sense of identity so fragile that it can be impacted by evnts which took place 3500 yrs ago. The so called Dravidians and Aryans are both Caucasians. The Dravidians of Mediterranean type and the Aryans of Nordic type. All over Eurasia, the expanding Nordics displaced the older Mediterranean cultures in the southern lands. This happened not only in India but also in the British Isles( Where the Celts were displaced into Scotland and Ireland by the Normans), In France, In Italy and in the Roman Lands by the Nordic Goths-Visigoths-Franks. In fact , the European Nordic invasions are as recent as 1200 yrs old. But we do not find the British or the French disputing the Norman-Saxon-Frank invasion or placing any importance there.

doubtinggaurav said...

Mitra,
Since you have decided to argue seriously for a change so I will gladly join issue with you.

Regarding caste I will agree with you.
Whatever the benifit of caste system,It is a convenient handle to divide Hindus (which is exploited by unscruplous politicians), for this simple reason I think caste identities are more harmful than benificial.

Regarding AIT, I will beg to differ with you.
There was never clinching evidence to validate AIT.
AIT was proposed by european scholars with eurocentric POV (Concept of races and invasions).
Hymns were taken out of context from Vedas and frequently mistranslated to validate AIT.
AIT was used by Britisn to justify their occupation of India (one group of oustiders supplanting another group of outsiders).
Hinduism was portrayed as a outside influence, and misinformation campaign was launched to portray Aryans as aggressors who destroyed Dravidian culture, further instituion of casteism was cynically used to insinuate that Upper caste was Aryan and Lower caste was Dravidian and therefore Native.
After independence Missionaries in tandem with Marxist continued with this lie, to malign Hinduism, even though it has been discredited (I have read that Romila Thapar, High Priestess of communism doesnt support it).
AIT is still taught in school in various forms, which in my opinion,is obfuscation at best and propoganda at worst.
It is this propoganda that Rajeev and others are trying to combat.
You think AIT is about something which happened 3500 years ago, however in my opinion, AIT is about something which is being done to Hindus for 100 years ago, and is still relevant.

In my opinion study of history on racial basis is overdrawn, as races are intermingling long before even bronze age started.The diffenrences of colour can be explained with difference in radiation.
This intermingling can also explain the differences between "North" and "South" (which Rajeev alluded in a previous post)
North has always been in path of invasions from central asia/persia
Invasion usually result in intermingling of different genes, since invasion were, for the most times absorbed in North, it has variation with South.

As an aside I think you have some inaccuracies, "Aryans" were not "Nordic" (Sure Hitler thought so, but he was a nut).
Nowadays tt is usually thought that "Aryans" were from near Black Sea.
I have put Aryans in quotes because as I said, I cosider races immaterial

Regards

mitra said...

Doubtinggaurav said:

"As an aside I think you have some inaccuracies, "Aryans" were not "Nordic" (Sure Hitler thought so, but he was a nut).
Nowadays tt is usually thought that "Aryans" were from near Black Sea.
I have put Aryans in quotes because as I said, I cosider races immaterial"

No, you are wrong. "Aryans were Nordics". Nordic is a sub-race of Caucasians. It has nothing to do with Nordland(Scandinavia).The other sub-races of Caucasians are Alpines(Middle Europe) and Mediterranean(North Africa, South Europe, Middle East and parts of Indian Subcontinent). The origin of Nordics is supposed to be in Kurgan area of U.S.S.R.

Sure , AIT is just a theory. It has not been proved. But it has enough evidence in its favour-including genetic.

The alternative theory , Out of India(OIT) is so ridiculous that only a few pseudointellectual diehards believe in it.

mitra said...

And, even Dravidians cannot claim to be native; even in AIT. The Mediterranean Caucasoids(Dravidians) displaced the Austrics who still form the bedrock of all Indian populations - austric maternal mitochondrial DNA(M)has been found all over India. The Austrics are now confined to Central India and deep south. Even the Austrics were not native . They displaced the negritos who had come in the original migrations from Africa. The Dravidian culture was a natural expansion of the Egypt-Mesopotamia-Sumer cultures which were all Mediterranean Urban cultures.

The North Indian populations do carry Nordic Gene identifiers on Y-Chromosomes. These genes are present throughout the Nordic areas in Asia and Europe.

Invasions/migrations are a way of life and does not detract from legitimacy. It is well known that may Rajput clans have descended from Huns, Kushans and other Scythian tribes who came into India as late as 200 A.D. So, should we delegitimise the Rajputs?

doubtinggaurav said...

Mitra,

Nordic indeed means norse(or northern)
Please see
Norse_Race

"AIT is just a theory. It has not been proved"

For a theory which has been in existence for 100 years and yet no "clinching" evidence has been found, doesnt it strike you that it is lots of BS ?

"But it has enough evidence in its favour-including genetic."

I am not an expert on genetics, but can genetics prove occurence of "Invasion" at some particular instance ?
seems hard to me ?

Concerning OIT, I am not enough of expert to dismiss it, I won't call it ridiculous though.

Regards

Anonymous said...

Mitra you r vomiting BS all the time and its a stinking a lot.Next time try to vomit something which less stinking, so that we can atleast bear with your BS.

doubtinggaurav said...

Mitra,

If you will look at my first post, then you will see that I said that application of racial theory to describe history is outdated .
So I think we are in agreement on this.

While Invasions/Migrations are way of life, If you make a statement that at instance "t", group X invaded replaced group Y(which is what AIT claims) you will have to prove it.

My doubt about genetics as an accurate method still remains

Regards

mitra said...

Wikipedia articles can vary widely in quality and in bias. Look up Carleton Coon on classification of the Caucasoid race. The Nordic Race has become a "dirty word" in Europe after Hitler.

Race continues to be a valid way of classifying Humans. And , this has been supported by genetics.

Regarding AIT : It is believable because it leaves a valid trail

1.Sansrit is a member of Indo-Aryan group of languages while Dravidian languages, even while having a high proportion of Sanskrit words, are not.

2. There is a valid trail of Indo-Aryans from Kurgan area to North - India reflecting various stages in technological advancement.

3.The Genetic evidence is strong in favour of AIT/AMT.

The Rigved is soft evidence. It can be interpreted either way. Added to this, the vedas were not written in one go. Who can say which Mandals were written first, and which later.

mitra said...

Wikipedia articles can vary widely in quality and in bias. Look up Carleton Coon on classification of the Caucasoid race. The Nordic Race has become a "dirty word" in Europe after Hitler.

Race continues to be a valid way of classifying Humans. And , this has been supported by genetics.

Regarding AIT : It is believable because it leaves a valid trail

1.Sanskrit is a member of Indo-Aryan group of languages while Dravidian languages, even while having a high proportion of Sanskrit words, are not.

2. There is a valid trail of Indo-Aryans from Kurgan area to North - India reflecting various stages in technological advancement.

3.The Genetic evidence is strong in favour of AIT/AMT.

The Rigved is soft evidence. It can be interpreted either way. Added to this, the vedas were not written in one go. Who can say which Mandals were written first, and which later.

Anonymous said...

It is not Rigved you idiot. It is Rig Veda.

We should delegitimise rajputs of the mitra variety, those with those precious nordic genes.

AB said...

This is a question to indianpatriot: where are you from in Dakshina Kannada? I'm also from D.K. and your post about the similarity between D.K and Kerala was interesting. I've always though D.K was closer to Kerala than the rest of Karnataka. I know this topic is not related to the discussion here, but I was curious.

doubtinggaurav said...

Mitra,

1). Language may spread independently of "Invasion"

2). Trail of Indo Aryans doesnt support "Invasion"

3).Genetic evidence are not accurate and can not pin point
at time "t" X supplanted Y by invasion and in some cases even migration, I think India is one such case

4). "Rig Veda" was used by Pro-AIT in support of AIT, so it is ironical that you are taking Rig Veda as "soft"
It will be interesting to note that region described in Rig Veda belongs exclusively to Indian subcontinent (Notwithstanding mornic effort by eminent historian to locate Saraswati in Afganistan,Iran,Mars)

5). Subjectivity of Wiki is open ended, since there was no POV tag, I assume it was neutral. But If you could provide alternate links I will go through it.

6).While race may or may not be a valid way to classify present day humans (I think it is not), In my opinion the timeline of race classification is much earlier than that of bronze age.

Regards

Anonymous said...

Arya as a race was definitely an invention of the British.

In Kalidasa's Shakuntala (one of the most famous dramas in Sanskrit language), the character of Shakuntala scolds Dushyanta with the word 'Anarya' (meaning Not Arya). The word Arya here meant a learned person, an honorable person. Definitely not a race.

Anonymous said...

Classifying the world by race to incorrectly justify greedy and barbaric activities is a European gift to the world.

Classifying the world by demarcated religions to incorrectly justify greedy and barbaric activities is an Abrahamic/Semitic gift to the world.

Anonymous said...

Classifying the world by race to incorrectly justify greedy and barbaric activities is a European gift to the world.

Classifying the world by demarcated religions to incorrectly justify greedy and barbaric activities is an Abrahamic/Semitic gift to the world.

mitra said...

I do not consider this to be the right place for discussing AIT in detail.

I do feel that Hidutva proponents are creating a bogeyman where none exists. To say that events of such hoary past have an impact today is to insult the intellect of modern Hindus.

Even if Aryans and Dravidians existed in the past, they dont exist today. All Indians are mixed by now. Noone can claim to be the victim or conqueror. The only "victims(original people)" are the Negritos of A&N Islands.

Can anyone point to any statement by any British administrator who said that British have a right to rule India because Aryans were themselves conquerors; or is it just hearsay being propagated? Can anyone even point out British Govt support for Max Muller?

Anonymous said...

Yes this is not the right place to discuss AIT.

So scoot off bandicoot.

mitra said...

Only because blogspace is not a palce for detailed discussion on "evidence"; comments will become too long.

doubtinggaurav said...

"Can anyone point to any statement by any British administrator who said that British have a right to rule India because Aryans were themselves conquerors; or is it just hearsay being propagated? Can anyone even point out British Govt support for Max Muller? "

From http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/aid/davidduke.html

In 1935 Winston Churchill declared that the British had as much right to be in India as anyone else there, except perhaps “the Depressed Classes, who are the native stock”.


"To say that events of such hoary past have an impact today is to insult the intellect of modern Hindus."

Modern Hindus can be made fools
Infact any group during any period of time can be made fool

Please read some history about how vested interest fool people

Regards

mitra said...

You are welcome to discuss the "evidence" at any suitable forum.

I was once an ardent believer in anti-AIT and have gone through the arguements. The only substantial arguement is mention of Saraswati / sea in Rig Veda. N S Rajaram does not want to discuss linguistics or philology. Even mention of Saraswati is not a problem if the Vedas are dated to a later period.

mitra said...

You are welcome to discuss the "evidence" at any suitable forum.

I was once an ardent believer in anti-AIT and have gone through the arguements. The only substantial arguement is mention of Saraswati / sea in Rig Veda. N S Rajaram does not want to discuss linguistics or philology. Even mention of Saraswati is not a problem if the Vedas are dated to a later period.

mitra said...

For a rather detailed discussion, check this link

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Har-veda.htm

Anonymous said...

According to AIT, since the Aryans invaded in their chariots with cows in front of them, and buffaloes are associated with Dravidians as contended by Kancha Iliah, we should get a head count and distribution of cows and buffaloes in India. This should help settle who invaded whom.

Maybe Laloo can help with the data.

mitra said...

The absurdities in Out of India(OIT) discussed in detail by Michael Witzel.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.htm

Anonymous said...

If "Kerala" can be "Keral" why can't the Rigveda be Rigved?

blackpanther said...

mitra, take some time to read the articles by David Frawley. they can be found in the same page which you have provided. there is strong genetic evidence to suggest that migration happened out of india. you can find it in the archives of this site.

Anonymous said...

If "Kerala" can be "Keral" why can't the Rigveda be Rigved?

yes, yes. and mitra can be mitrrrr...

as in the sound generated when mitr farts.

blackpanther said...

mitra,
i dont know about you but after reading through the articles in the link
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Har-veda.htm
i am more inclined to agree with david frawley. witzel has not tried to answer the questions raised by david. instead he is indulging in ad hominem attacks and diversions. just one example: it is quite possible that 'samudra' has several meanings. but david gives reference to instances which unabmigously say that it meant ocean. goes to show ait is losing battle. another thing i noticed in ait literature is that the ait advocates give undue importance to linguistic angle and iranian connection. the whole ait is hanging on a few strings but it surely is very well packaged.

mitra said...

Blackpanther,I suggest you check up the 2nd link. And do it with an open mind.

Anonymous said...

Mitro-Khin,
ANybody who succumbed to the chinese, Macaulay got his brain screwed up. It requires some time to study well. Tell me why would some body conjure up such an idea ? They say that a horse bone is not found in India-Pakisthan. But have they destroyed all of India and dug up everything beutiful, supposedly to check that horse bone ? If not watch out whatelse beury, erudiction they dig up.

Don't pretend that Macaulay is the primal man for the intellegensia, because without this pretension that answers can be there. What a sorry state !


I was once an ardent believer in anti-AIT and have gone through the arguements. The only substantial arguement is mention of Saraswati / sea in Rig Veda. N S Rajaram does not want to discuss linguistics or philology.

Anonymous said...


Even if Aryans and Dravidians existed in the past, they dont exist today. All Indians are mixed by now. Noone can claim to be the victim or conqueror. The only "victims(original people)" are the Negritos of A&N Islands.

So you think the Maoists can't be victim ? why ? Do you think the commies can't be liberators? Are you the same Mitro-Khin who was talking of brain biology ?


.....or is it just hearsay being propagated? Can anyone even point out British Govt support for Max Muller?

Sell yourself to some of these secular specialists for few nights. They will tell you about Max Mueller and the story. If you are the same Mitro-Khin who talked of brain and stuff, then Rajeev Has mentioned this already the issue, I can only advise that you gave to carry some anti-infection protection.

Anonymous said...

How can we expect Hindu Unity to come about if 90% Hindus are not allowed to read the basic teaxts.

What exactly a hindu unity would serve, if collectively they would look to Max Mueller , Commie plants, traitors and anti-hindus ? 100% of the people were allowed to read advanced texts, advanced when measured to current hindu idea about himself. Unfortunately it has gone to the point when it doesn't matter whether you are Mitra or Mitro-Khin( now what relation Mitra has with Arya.. ? You are not worth a clue even..). So hat hindu unity you are talking of ? when such educated people who can access Harvard websight would say that 100% hindus didn't know all of hinduism, atleast in theory ( they were denied many rituals and stuff like that), then you pity yourself.

Anonymous said...

So , who advocates conversions here. Can any Christian or Muslim here care to answer. Does conversion provide salvation. I believe you just change your set of beliefs, by converting(or raise /lower your level of intolerance). You exchange one set of truth and lies for another set of truth and lies.
Do you think converting will take you to the heavens, or provide salvation or give you 77 young boys (and in very few cases, 77 virgins). Then why are Muslim Dalits claiming backward caste status, and Christians called Dalits. I thought there is no caste system in mono-theistic religions. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with worshipping idols. Dont Christians worship idols of Jesus (seen in churches), or the wooden cross. Dont Muslims pray to a stone building in some desert of arabia. Isnt there a stone box (or whatever it is ), covered with green cloth in mosques, which muslims worship.


What do you mean "advocates conversion"? AFAIK no Hindu claims that he can believe in Christ and remain a Hindu or believe in Mohammed and be a Hindu. Or are you saying that you can worship Christ and Mohammed in a Hindu setting?
The issue at hand is can Christian missionaries preach their religion? In a free society the answer would be yes. Then comes the issue of "conversion". If I were from religion X and find that religion Y appears more convincing, then I should be able to change my religion (conversion) without government interference. This a question of conscience and free thought. How can any "government agent" assess the validity of my conversion? It is not their "right" nor the "right" of the Indian public or the "right" of an Indian court to assess an Indian citizen's conscience. Besides it would make sense if all conversions are treated the same way - say like a marriage license, but they are not. The anti-conversion law is thus slanted against Christian conversion and the same laws are not applied where there is a re-conversion back to Hinduism. That the Nizhal Yoddha can back "choice" in software but not religion is not just laughable but ironic - choice in some matters but not all. Must be the neo-liberal catch phrase of his times.

In a land like India where prejudices are deep seated, Dalits are the lowest strata of Indian society. In a predominantly Hindu society the religion of the Dalits does not matter. The reason they "converted" to other religions was because of the real or perceived indifference of their Hindu brethren to their plight. It is only when they started "converting" in droves did the Hindu religious leadership even start talking about the caste system (that the Nizhal Yoddha loves). The arguments that Muslims do not have caste and Christians do not have caste therefore Dalits from these religions should not get government-based reservations (because of their religion) is ridiculous in a predominantly Hindu society.

As for idols and wooden cross - no Christians do not pray to the wooden cross or to the idols of Jesus. The Muslims don't pray to a stone building and the stonebox cannot be considered an idol anymore than any wooden bench is an idol.

san said...

Is the Tamil population in Sri Lanka dropping?

http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=15908

Apparently, the Tamil portion of the population may have dropped to as low as 3.9%!

Wow, anymore falloff and they can kiss the entire separatist thing goodbye. This really shows that the Eelam movement is burning itself out and has no future. By the time they solve their internal feud between the north and the eastern parts of Sri Lanka, the Sinhala will have simply won by birthrate alone.

Well, as that war winds down, it will be one less threat for us to worry about. I just don't want any of the Eelam diaspora abroad to turn their sights on Tamil Nadu as some sort of consolation prize.

Anonymous said...

There are different churches in USA catering to immigrants from different parts of the world. Some Catholic Churches in San Antonio have bilingual masses because of the number of Hispanic immigrants. As for WASPs and the perceived "caste" system in the US a bit of fantasazing helps huh? No doubt that the latest American census has interracial couples and Hispanics outnumbering the WASPs giving a blow to your theory. BTW, the Kennedy family was never considered "WASP". Your question of marriage to a Kennedy Family member is like asking if a Muslim or an Ezhava Hindu can marry into Murali Manohar Joshi's family. Arnold Schwazzeneger is not a WASP either. There is a difference between class and caste.....

prasank said...

to the anno who defended evangelism,
When a christian preacher comes to me and asks me to convert my religion, he is basically denying my right to practice my religion of choice. Hence, evangelism should not be allowed in a free society. A christian preacher has no right to tell me what to follow. Its my conscience. right? So, in a free society they have no place. This has happened with me where a preacher has denigrated my religion for me to choose his religion. From what limited knowledge I have, all the anti-conversion laws are against this type of conversions and does not prevent anyone from practising a religion of choice. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Anonymous said...

When a Christian preacher comes to me and asks me to convert my religion, he is basically denying my right to practice my religion of choice.Hence, evangelism should not be allowed in a free society.

When products are advertised is somebody inhibiting your ability to shop? How will you even know that there exists an alternative if you don't know (i) that there are alternatives and (ii) what the alternatives are? It is a free society precisely because you can listen (or not) to the alternatives and choose for yourself. I seriously doubt that there are preachers hounding at your doors demanding you change your religion. For the record, forced conversion to another religion and forced re-conversion from another religion are both wrong.

This has happened with me where a preacher has denigrated my religion for me to choose his religion. From what limited knowledge I have, all the anti-conversion laws are against this type of conversions and does not prevent anyone from practising a religion of choice.

"Denigrating" another religion for the sake of conversion is wrong. Most preachers realize that "denigrating" another religion does not win converts to their own religion. But then "denigrating", like beauty, lies in the beholder and is relative. (The only time it works is when it is done under threat of occupation and domination - both of which are not true in India). I don't see how preaching a different religion inhibits your ability to follow any religion of your choice, either. The anti-conversion laws are one-sided: for instance,
in Madhya Pradesh, one of the States in which the anti-conversion had been enacted decades ago, two priests and a nun were sentenced to imprisonment on the charge of forcible conversion by a Raigarh court. This despite a written communication sent to the District Magistrate, the SDM and the SO (Police) claiming they had changed their religion voluntarily and without any allurement. So what is inducement, what is denigration, what is voluntary? - as far as the law is concerned, it is very subjective.

Anonymous said...

In a free society... When a preacher is advertising by saying bad things about my religion, can I shoot/burn him. Hey its a free society. Dude, there are obligations and responsibilities too. The majority have given you the right to pracice your religion. So STFU(shut the fuck up) and practice it. yes, numbers matter and I hate the numbers in my religion reducing for various reasons.
You cannot justify what you want(Evangelism, allurement, etc) and then say our actions are against free society. the bottom line is if you want harmony stop evangelism now. Indian society doesn't like evangelism. the aspects of islam/christianity or any other religion is out there and the citizens don't need paid pimps to propogate it. if they want to convert they will do it of their own accord. u can shout all u want about free society and the freedom to evangelize, but we don't like it and when we r damn pissed u will see the reaction.

don't freaking bring in casteism to justify conversion. It wasn't as cruel as it is made out to be. It is just being exaggerated for the purpose of politics, to makes us defensive and I wouldn't be surprised if the fucking evangelists are doing it.

"It is only when they started "converting" in droves did the Hindu religious leadership even start talking about the caste system (that the Nizhal Yoddha loves)."

NO, NO, NO...STFU again. we saw the evils of caste system much before conversion dude. We started cleaning it up much before. I don't know the exact dates... but check it up. Indian society have had rebels and movements against the caste system very often and since a long time.

prasank said...

Hey,
They gave only a written letter? They didnt turn up at court? Now you are going against the Indian judicial system.
I certainly didnt feel the preacher was just presenting an option. A more correct way to put his methods would be persuation. Which I think is also wrong.
In a free society I wouldnt have to listen to something I dont have to, which is certainly not the case in India. Do you really mean to say a christian preacher intends only to present an alternative when he says Jesus is the "only" savior?
Also, if I were to compare preaching to ads, its like a Pepsi ad against a 'Kulirma' drinks ad.
Further extending an ad, he is not saying his product is so much times better than mine. What he basically says is mine is not a product at all. So, I think the comparison of religion to an ad is vey poor.
Now, the actual situation is not as simple as this. A modern day preacher comes in different forms and his techniques are very tactful. For example, in my case this happened to be one of my professors during my bachelors!!!
This guy puts out an invitation to students to his house. As a freshman, I had no idea what I had in store. The first gathering was large had a general collection of freshmen and nothing specific was said. But during subsequent gatherings, the topic of discussion would slowly change to religion and beliefs. Now, a freshman student is no match in debate against a trained preacher. Now, the problem is I have him as one of my teachers. So, how can I just stop, or what reason do I give if I were to stop? Luckily for me, I got transfer to another college after one month.
I came to know about other stories next year. e.g. This prof. became the 'incharge' for hostels. Citing a shortage of rooms, first year girls were made to stay in a nearby hostel run by nuns. (The college is about 60 years old. As if there were no previous first year girls coming into the college).
Another incident that comes to my mind immedeatly is a bus journey I had from Kottayam to Kothamangalam (both places in kerala). The passenger on the next seat started talking about how great christainity is and why not I conver to it. All I wanted to do was to sleep. I got so irritated, I actually shouted at the person. This is what I mean by infringement on my freedom.
Further stories of preaching activity is there for all of us to read in archives of this blog.

Anonymous said...

"When products are advertised is somebody inhibiting your ability to shop? How will you even know that there exists an alternative if you don't know (i) that there are alternatives and (ii) what the alternatives are? It is a free society precisely because you can listen (or not) to the alternatives and choose for yourself. I seriously doubt that there are preachers hounding at your doors demanding you change your religion. For the record, forced conversion to another religion and forced re-conversion from another religion are both wrong."

This is the sad thing about christism -- it is an industry, with huge capital and very savvy marketing! They don't solve problems they create them, more and more in non-white lands to plunder the bio-diversity and subjugate the colored ones (as one anon pointed out earlier -- Bishop Tutu's statement). An we have our own colored bretheren batting for these subversive foreigners, inebreiated in the marketing spin and the pseudo white status; thereby causing an entire civilization to lose its strategic value -- the value of tolerance and pluralism. Interestingly, recently a Muslim conclave in Bombay had the borad-mindedness to admint that it is because of the Hindus that India was secular!

christist anon, wrt to Hindus caste is not the problem, casteism is! Wrt to India, Hindu Dharma is not the problem, christists and islamists are!

Anonymous said...


It is only when they started "converting" in droves did the Hindu religious leadership even start talking about the caste system (that the Nizhal Yoddha loves)."

Nope, they found that the 'evil' in caste system because it was a hindrance in conversion to the church in name of their god or prophet. It is only after attacking it they converted the hindus in any significant scale. All the while they were also trading in slaves, and converting them to christism too.



The issue at hand is can Christian missionaries preach their religion? In a free society the answer would be yes.

Agreed. In a free society if Christians make it a habit to denigrate something else because of their false arrogance, then one should also be allowed to criticize them. If the missionaries spread so much slander on the hindus, then hindus should be allowed to expose the evil pope who runs things like an empire.

mitra said...

Let me contribute my two-bits to this discussion on conversions.

1. A bit too much is being made of "Free will" of an individual in conversions. I would rather call it Brand Pushing with promises of great after sales service. Why is it that it is mostly poor, uneducated classes that get converted to Christianity. And why is it that missionary activity is hardly present in staunch Hindu, high caste dominated areas of North India while it is rampant in Central Indian tribal belt and in North Eastern states.

2. Is religion a commodity that individuals should have "free choice" in this matter. If so, we have accepted the humanistic philosophy of primacy of Indiavidual over society. Since all humanistic philosophies are essentially nihilistic, any religion can have no place. No thinking person can place religion in the same category as a market commodity. Religion, along with race and shared history and geography, not only defines a persons identity, but also, a change in religion impacts a persons relation with his family and the whole society. What happens if the husband becomes a christian but the wife and children remain Hindu. Would you still call it strictly individual choice.

3. The fundamental reson why Hindus resent, rather abhor, conversions is that we do not play that game. At the strictest level, you have to be born a Hindu to be a Hindu; you cannot become a Hindu by conversion. Therefore proselyting has no meaning for a Hindu. Being confined more or less within a country, the Hindus do constitute a nation; an impossibility for christians who are spread in many countries. Conversions are seen, not as exercise of individual choice, but as a threat and betrayal to the Hindu nation.

4. You know , as well as I, that conversions are attained by

a. Gift of money to individuals.
b. Gifts of money to headmen (on commission basis)
c. Amateur magic(works wonders with tribals)
d. advances in medical sciences - I have seen this myself: cures are in the name of Jesus

Anonymous said...

Wow! How come mitra has become sane and has started talking sense? Is it a case of the devil quoting the scriptures? I wonder. Though it doesnt absolve mitra from being an abhorent racist, especially his despicable attitude towards southern Indians and Brahmins.

mitra said...

I have always been for Hindu unity; Though I do not agree with Hindutva - its paranoia and shrill propaganda are making Hindus look like Fascists, which they are not.

S said...


you have to be born a Hindu to be a Hindu; you cannot become a Hindu by conversion.

This is as if looking from a centrally administered perspective. Hinduism is not to be justified ithin this. The thing is, there is no value to attaching somebody to any sort of organization, hen it is done for ulterior purposes it is contradictory to hinduism. There have been people who follow hinduism, though not born into. But this hole idea of playinh with mass sentiments is not there in hinduism - some european ideologies are strong at that ( Because of handling the masses in colonies ??)


its paranoia and shrill propaganda are making Hindus look like Fascists, which they are not.

The culprits are those who campaign against hinduism. There is a macaulayite class who has sold out hinduism by being good and nice to sundry, it is the RSS guys , which fought for hinduism.

How could you slander the word hindutwa, and then stand for hinduism, when your language is being hizacked ?? Is it because nehruvian stalinists have made it convenient ?

S said...


There is a macaulayite class who has sold out hinduism by being good and nice to sundry, it is the RSS guys , which fought for hinduism.


One should be fine if a hindu does whatever in his personal capacity. But there is this mafia who controll the hindus for their masters elsewhere. I don;t see much intrest by Mitra in learning hinduism, instead he has started his attacks, as if he is a superior being, but that is also questionable from his information.

There is this attitude that if you know half an european philosophy book, then you are good enough to trash entire hinduism. Talk of hindu unity ? United hindus for service of which comrades ?

mitra said...

Also; while I am an atheist myself, I consider Hinduism to be least BS of all religions( other Eastern religions score well too). The pantheistic philosophy of Hinduism is ultimately no different from atheism. If god is immanent in everything, then god is nothing but existence. Hinduism remains the best choice for a rational person who has to have some religion in this world.

I wonder if it is realised, but Hindutva is trying to erode precisely those characteristics of Hinduism which make it different from proselyting religions. If I need an organized church, I would rather have Roman Catholicism with its powers and long traditions rather than a fledgling Hindu church. If I want to wage Jihad, Islam, backed with petrodollars is a better choice.

Hatred is a rare commodity. Intense hatred should be reserved for those occasions when physical violence is desired. Hatred cannot be sustained over long periods. The Hindutva strategy of fuelling continious hatred will ultimately blunt the senses. Countries cannot sustain war economies for long.

S said...

You said the problem . Now you are an atheist person, and the atheist/Marxist church is elsewhere. You are a rationalist person, and the rationalist prophets have different things to do. Clearly Mitra, there are hindus, whom you have attacked obnoxiously here, and they have won arguments over atheists since centuries. The problem with some of the atheists is that, they would consider well qualified to talk on hinduism ? WHy ? Talk about atheisism ! You don't have to perform dozens of attacks before mentioning your atheist religion.

I say this because, the macaulayite class also fakes atheism, when they think it makes better business sense to sell to the powerful. They got everything from hinduism, but changed their church, and want more oppurtinities. What a shame !





Also; while I am an atheist myself, I consider Hinduism to be least BS of all religions( other Eastern religions score well too). The pantheistic philosophy of Hinduism is ultimately no different from atheism. If god is immanent in everything, then god is nothing but existence. Hinduism remains the best choice for a rational person who has to have some religion in this world.

mitra said...

Ad hominem attack demonstrate weakness, nothing else. You can discuss the issues in a dispassionate manner.

mitra said...

S,

The anonymity of Internet does not give you a right to indulge in immature outbursts. If you are done with your apoplectic personal slanders, I am ready to discuss any topic on hindu philosophy with you, provided you consider yourself competent enough.

S said...

Mitra,
You don't seem to recognize your attacks... You think you are mature because of some half baked information. You have been indulged in slander also.

I would be more intrested to talk atheism with you, provided you show some competence.

I understand you are so good at hindu philosophy that you have become an atheist. I would have liked a simple world where people are less opprtinistic, I may not be good at hindu philosophy, but I should be what I am.

mitra said...

Ad hominem attacks demonstrate weakness, nothing else.

S said...


Ad hominem attacks demonstrate weakness, nothing else.

I would presume you to be quite strong, good ....But the pumped up stuff that you have been posting here is not be accepted by all, nor any deceptions.

Anonymous said...

Kapidhwaja,
I do not know whether the common entry system into the vedic schools to all castes will solve anything, mahesh yogi tried it and see the dropouts from his vedic schools..(staggering 90%)

There were always exceptions like "Vidura" in Mahabharata who learned everything his Kshatriya counterparts learned. Those should be encouraged where people excel or have full qualifications and the discipline. Similarly for any teaching "Yogyata" is important. One is brahmin does not mean he is fit to learn or preach anything.

i 100% agree with Rajeev that present day Caste system is 70% propagation by the British and their ancestors in our Christists in India. First these have to be reversed and all PEOPLE (not castes) need to be given equal priorities.

AnonFromKerala said...

From the Syrian Christian Anon from Kerala...
you have to be born a Hindu to be a Hindu; you cannot become a Hindu by conversion.

I raised this towards the beginning of this train of posts. So, is this true? Doesnt this contradict the thought that Hinduism is a culture and all people in India are in reality Hindus (heard this from a Murli Joshi speech).

As for conversion, this is how I think of it. Conversions should NEVER be coerced, neither should conversions be done by the use of money, food or whatever sorcery that some have accused missionaries of.
But conversion/practice of any religion is every Indian's right. So, how can the govt make rules that disallow conversions? Doesn't that go against what is in the Constitution (right to preach, practise and propagate any religion)?
I know that some evangelical Christians believe in numbers. It is almost like a company where the marketing wing has to show the numbers at the end of each year to justify more funds for the enxt year. I dont think any Christian should ever justify this.
But here again, people fail to understand the different kinds of Christianity. There is the Orthodox and Catholic faiths, which, in spite of differences are based on apostolic traditions. And then there is the Evangelical/Protestant faith which emerged because of the stupid and barbarious deeds of mainly the Catholic Pope and company.
If we take a look at the kind of conversions that take place in NEast or in tribal belts in India, it is done by the Evangelical group which is not even accepted as valid Christian sects by the Catholics or Orthodox people. So, I as an Orthodox Christian am requesting all to please stop dubbing these unchristian activities as part of some mega Chrsitian plan.

And I hope I dont sound like one of those supposedly modern and moderate Muslims who say terrorism is not Islam but do nothing about the evil within the Islamic societies. In this case, no Christian church has accepted the protestant groups as being Christian. Just because protestants make up 40% of the total supposedly Christian population doesnt make the group true Christians.

Someone asked me if I would stop practising Christianity if he pointed out definite parts of the Bible which mention that Christ himself said that non believers would end up in hell (sorry for getting to this so late). Sure, I would.
But here are the six things that are mentioned in the Bible (very specifically) about gaining God's favour. This is written as if Christ is the speaker.
1. I am hungry, give me something to eat.
2. I am thirsty, give me something to drink.
3. I am a stranger, invite me in. 4. I am in rags, clothe me.
5. I am sick, look after me.
6. I am in prison, visit me.
I think this is from Mathew Ch 25 though I am not sure. Now which of these says "Believe in me, else perish"?
I didnt want to propagate Christianity here but am just trying to correct some false notions and thought this was a necessity. Sorry for all the long post.

Anonymous said...

hello all,

my take on this long thread.

if caste is inherent to sanatana dharma, then how come there are no caste, of course this is with some exceptions, among sri lankan, malaysian, singaporean, fijian, carribean hindus of same indian ancestory. just curious.

i think caste is more to do with societal hierarchy that it is with core principles of sanatana dharma.

i would also like to point out that caste still prevades among so called "equal brethren muslims" of pakistan and christians in india, tamil nadu in particular and of all the equals, commies of kerala and w. bengal.

caste is no different from class system that is still in place in christian europe.

so to any one who says that sanathana dharma discriminates, i say take that argument and shove it up your ass.

siva

blackpanther said...

here are a few quotes from the bible. christianity has always taken these literally, not that there is any ambiguity.

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5


Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8


Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Anonymous said...

mitra says he stands for Hindu unity, all the while throwing mud on Brahmins and making racial remarks against southern Indians.

Anonymous said...

Anon fromKerala!
You do make sense!But, if the Christian community is not in favor of the Shrill campaigns and deceitful messages coming out of Paul Dinakaran types, why are they not distancing themeselves from these liers and monsters...
I have known this auto driver who has been earning an honest living and he suddenly became christian and built a two-storeyed building and is preaching 'Aandavar'...Yes! it is not ileegal to acept gifts! Yes he can make his choice..But lookat what the Zealots of your community are creating... a society of zombies who will do anything for the pittance coming out of the evangelist's golbal fund..
Not all is well with Hinduism! We need to abrogate Caste system as a whole! Can the learned Gurus like Dayanad saraswathi Ji and SS Ravishankar Ji do some thing?
---But Christianity is not without flaws as it is practised ! You can see alot of soul less characters calling themselves christian and amassing wealth in the most un-christian ways...I donot need to show cases of this ? DO I?
I think Hinduism is the most practical way.. Any body can practise what he believes..Yes you can preach what you believe too...DO NOT DENIGRATE THE OTHER FAITH calling them believers of false Gods!!

Kalyani said...

Darkstorm,

I feel honoured!That cretin(m)fills me with dread and weariness.Hence decided to read and not respond.

Thank you,I am happy!

Shankar said...

(source : www.kaumudi.com) This kinda info wont come in english media. It's time we equated missionary works = Terrorism!

HC upholds GOI order deporting 3 foreigners for missionary works

KOCHI: The Kerala High Court on Monday dismissed a writ appeal filed by a South African national challenging the Government of India order, directing deportation of a three-member family of foreigners for indulging in religious conversions in Kerala.

The Division Bench comprising Chief Justice Rajeev Gupta and Justice K.S. Radhakrishnan ruled that the Foreigners Act did not provide for filing objections against the GOI order, issued under section 3(2)(c) of the Foreigners Act, on the basis of a report of the Ernakulam Rural Superintendent of Police, which was supported by adequate proof.

The petitioners, consisting of Pretorius Barend Johnes Pretenas of South Africa, his German wife Sylivia Christini Pretenas and their son Bjoren Pretorius of German nationality, were charged with indulging in conversion of tribals of Keerampara in Ernakulam district into Christianity.

While Pretenas filed an appeal against a single bench order, petitions were also filed on the behalf of the other two, and all the petitions were dismissed.

AnonFromKerala said...

Shrill campaigns and deceitful messages coming out of Paul Dinakaran types, why are they not distancing themeselves from these liers and monsters...

Who said that Christians dont distance themselves from such people? If the Christian community doesnt consider these people to be legit Christians, what more can they do?
Suppose a guy starts some kind of organization and says that he is doing it on the basis of Hinduism, while in truth, he has nothing to do with Hinduism, what can Hindus do? I know that Muslims might immediately give a fatwa to hurt him. But dont think it happens with aby other religion.

Anonymous said...

Christian Crimeline

Arvind said...

AnonFromKerala wrote, "Someone asked me if I would stop practising Christianity if he pointed out definite parts of the Bible which mention that Christ himself said that non believers would end up in hell (sorry for getting to this so late). Sure, I would."

I was the one who asked you that question.

Here goes:

Matthew 12:30 - 12:32
12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

---
In Matthew 5:17, Jesus endorses the Old Testament.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
---

John 3:3 - 3:5

3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
---

Sir, it is your turn to keep your promise. I respect you, but it would be better if you behaved like intellectuals who opposed the Church. By quitting this religion which is nothing more than Arab politics, you renounce taking sides in some ancient Arab squabble and join the ranks of Bertrand Russell, George Thundiparambil, Voltaire, and similar people.

Please quit that violent religion which was intended to be a weapon for Arab imperialism but became a weapon for White imperialism. After all, conversion into Christianity is nothing but being recruited by the Army of ancient Arab politicians. There is no reason an Indian should be a foot soldier of Arab and White politicians, that too ancient ones!

As a Keralite, YOUR heritage is a rich one - Kerala is known for being associated with not one but two avatars of Vishnu.