Saturday, November 05, 2005

From the mailbox: Indian Civilization

nov 4

a baffling mail. indicates some confusion, starting from the axiomatic belief in 'aryan' and 'dravidian' and the 'aryan' invasion fairy-tale, and on top of it throwing in some tamil fundamentalist beliefs. well, if you start with an axiomatic belief in something, then of course you can 'prove' it but that would be considered a self-fulfilling, flawed proof.

i wonder if this is an example of the 'dravidian' state-of-the-art thinking these days.

if any of you understand what this person is saying better than i do, please respond to him/her. i must confess i don't understand.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: B
Date: Nov 5, 2005 2:58 AM
Subject: Indian Civilization
To: Rajeev.srinivasan@gmail.com

Sir,  As an Indian ,  I most wholeheartedly agree with the constant drumbeat against our civilization by negative elements from outside and within India. But this is not the sole fault of Indian Marxists and others. India was founded by people who believed in socialism as portrayed by the Democrats of America and other such parties. Even today , Indians migrating to the USA tend to lean for the ideology of the Democrats who represent marxists, socialists and those of the liberal left who still want to distribute other people's hard earned wealth. However, in India's case you blamed the left and people of such beliefs for the disarray and distortion of India's history and rightly so. But there are a few outstanding things which  trouble  not only bona fide Indian historians but western ones as well. There are some revisionists who are now trying to stretch back the ancient history even further WITHOUT  providing the necessary solid evidence that, that  history existed. Here are a few of them:        1:  Nowhere in the archaeological record, or writings  of India are there evidence
                              that cremation was practiced for funeral purposes before 1500BC.                                                                           2:  The Dalits of India have always been complaining that they were brutally
                              oppressed by the Aryan newcomers. While this is true there are no bona fide records to indicate their
                              suppression at the hands of the Aryans before 1500 BC 
                         3:   Also, if Aryans occupied India before 1500BC , are there any evidence to show that   
                              the caste system existed before 1500BC?
                         4:  Again,  if Aryans occupied India before 1500 BC, why is there no record among the other
                              ancient people whose records are bereft of such accounts such as cremation, horse sacrifice, 
                             horses, chariots and religious customs which were an important part of the life of the 
                             Aryans?  
                         5:  Recent research by scholars of the Tamil language and literature are empty of Aryan loan words, no
                              record in their literature of Aryan customs, rites and other such things before 1500BC
                         7:  The attempt by certain historians and writers of India , who I presume  that in rewriting India's
                              history is doing something noble, which I applaud, is having the opposite effect. For, example
                              Mr. N. Rajaram's attempt to falsely insert the image of the  horse in the Indus civilization, 
                              only tarnishes India's reputation abroad in the eyes of  Western scholars.   Everyone 
                              knows that the IVC did not possess, the horse, the chariot, the swastika or the horse nor
                              did they practice cremation. The archaeological record reveals that the IVC buried their
                             dead because their custom was from the south and probably among the first people to occupy India.
                         8:  Although, one of India's most distinguished historian, Mr. Iyengar  whose book" DRAVIDIAN INDIA "
                             emphatically states that cremation only came to India  after 1500 BC , the revisionists still insist that 
                             Aryans occupied India before that date and in doing so, making millions of Indians believe that the 
                             Aryans were not the progenitors of Indian history.
                         9: Recent research has shown that although some scripts of the Indus has been found in the surrounding
                             civilizations, but curiously enough no languages of those countries has been found among the Indus
                             ruins.  Why?
                        10:Certain segments of the population, especially the educated vast majority of Indians apparently 
                             the white nomadic Aryans, who play such an important part of Indian history.
                        11:Do you Mr.Srinivasan and others really do believe that an ancient, supposed to be barbaric and
                             crude characters as the Aryans is capable of building such  magnificent cities as the IVC?  If 
                            you do , then you will have to produce evidence of such earlier cities from the supposed  time
                            the Aryans occupied India and that is from before 1500 BC. 
                       12: Finally, I would invite any viewer and writer of your website to reply to me, even Mr. N Rajaram! 
                            Thanks for reading my boring beliefs.  

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

Rajeev,

You have been unduly charitable in calling it a "baffling mail" whereas the howler has unwittingly stated the truth-----"boring beliefs".

Some delirious brain's rantings.You are right about the "dravidian" pattern of thinking.You just have to listen to one of their shoddy debates (Patti Manrams)which are but a boorish display of verbal pyrotechnics!

The "boring belifs" are like the 'bondas' with no stuffing inside.

Anonymous said...

Correction of typo-"beliefs"

Anonymous said...

"If you cannot convince them, confuse them." - Hence the confusing email.

Anonymous said...

1: Nowhere in the archaeological record, or writings of India are there evidence that cremation was practiced for funeral purposes before 1500BC
When other religions go by the "book", we should also do the same based on our puranic (read ancient) writings. Our Mahabharatha has cremations in them. There is no evidence that 1500BC was the beginning of the Hindu civilization. This was an unsubstantiated theory conveniently inserted as a fact by British and missionary sponsored historians (who are also in control of history in India today) which you and me have simply accepted without questioning! Going by other indigenous schools of thought (who are likely more credible) the Mahabaratha was much before 1500BC, so the practice of cremation existed before. Unless ofcourse you we stick to our belief in ignorance. Education is in reading, questioning and accepting more credible points of view and not pandering to one's blind beliefs.

2: The Dalits of India have always been complaining that they were brutally oppressed by the Aryan newcomers. While this is true there are no bona fide records to indicate their suppression at the hands of the Aryans before 1500 BC

The Tamizh puranams (especially the Peria puranam) categorically show that all are equal before God -- though a Tamizh purana this is the same theme in all our Puranas. Don't go all the way bak to 1500BC (which is again an interesting date, the Dalits have completely accepted that date from the missionry and missionary sponsored propaganda). The Dalits have been brainwashed by the missionaries and missionary sponsored subverts to believe that their enemies are their own bretheren, while the enemies are the Christist whites -- Dalits are as much Hindus as anyone else; see the name of Dalits is iteself a divisionary tacktic as are Animists, Tribals etc. Wherever the society stands in Chaos, the non-white world such divionary tactics were employed. Instead of posting such a question, ask an Hindu who claims to be a Dalit, to prove that there were Aryans in the first place and then that they were peresucted by these Aryans after 1500BC -- in variably you will find only hate filled, unsubstantiated propaganda. The so called Dalit and non_Dalit divide today is the Hindu society's problem, not the Christist's.


3: Also, if Aryans occupied India before 1500BC , are there any evidence to show that the caste system existed before 1500BC?

The Mahabharatha is replete with such example and most indigenous therories are more credible in this regard.

4: Again, if Aryans occupied India before 1500 BC, why is there no record among the other ancient people whose records are bereft of such accounts such as cremation, horse sacrifice, horses, chariots and religious customs which were an important part of the life of the Aryans?

Simple, because the Aryan invasion theory is a myth created by the colonial masters and thier missionary stooges! Turn the question around, ask the AIT proponets to conclusively pove to you that AIT was indeed a reality!

5: Recent research by scholars of the Tamil language and literature are empty of Aryan loan words, no record in their literature of Aryan customs, rites and other such things before 1500BC

Again, because there was no AIT!! Please note that certain Tamizh scholars are now tending to believe that Sanskrit was archaic Tamizh! Please Google for more info.


7: The attempt by certain historians and writers of India , who I presume that in rewriting India's history is doing something noble, which I applaud, is having the opposite effect. For, example
Mr. N. Rajaram's attempt to falsely insert the image of the horse in the Indus civilization,
only tarnishes India's reputation abroad in the eyes of Western scholars. Everyone knows that the IVC did not possess, the horse, the chariot, the swastika or the horse nor did they practice cremation. The archaeological record reveals that the IVC buried their dead because their custom was from the south and probably among the first people to occupy India.


First you seem to believe one set of theories without questioning its authenticity, such as AIT, since it perhaps comes from Western sources but in the same breadth you easily question the work of a person of Indian origin -- think about the implication of that carefully! That aside, the history as it stands today is a shame thrust on us by our erstwhile rulers, now perpetuated by our own traitors. History is not recorded as was done during the old days of our Indian kings, instead it is doctored to further foreign interests! Please educate yourself with the Tamizh puranas for more information. Leave aside the N. Rajaraman's controversy, how much of Tamizh history and Indian history do you know. Educate yourself in real stuff before posting questions for which you cannot get conclusive answers from anyone on public forums like this. You should question those "emminent" Historians that you trust on the veracity of their writings.

8: Although, one of India's most distinguished historian, Mr. Iyengar whose book" DRAVIDIAN INDIA " emphatically states that cremation only came to India after 1500 BC , the revisionists still insist that Aryans occupied India before that date and in doing so, making millions of Indians believe that the Aryans were not the progenitors of Indian history.

Poor brahmin, this Iyengar!

Anyway, can the "expert" prove his assertion that cremation did not exist before 1500BC?

Guy/Gal, you are so impressed by this Arayan and Davidian theory! Why not question the "emminent" Romilla Thappar to prove such a division ever existed.

9: Recent research has shown that although some scripts of the Indus has been found in the surrounding civilizations, but curiously enough no languages of those countries has been found among the Indus ruins. Why?

Interestingly new research is out there to show a continuity between Saraswati and Indus civilizations, Google!

But then you will bilieve only whom you want to believe. I suggest you read through all the material and quesition those AIT "experts" to prove thier case.

10:Certain segments of the population, especially the educated vast majority of Indians apparently the white nomadic Aryans, who play such an important part of Indian history.

Boy this is propaganda stuff! Visit the Bradshaw foundation for information on genetics to be more educated. Also visit atlan.org for an exhaustive reaseach.

11:Do you Mr.Srinivasan and others really do believe that an ancient, supposed to be barbaric and crude characters as the Aryans is capable of building such magnificent cities as the IVC? If
you do , then you will have to produce evidence of such earlier cities from the supposed time
the Aryans occupied India and that is from before 1500 BC.


I am sure that Rajeev and other readers believe that India was one of the greatest civilization's on earth, perhaps even the mother of all civilizations. Again please visit bradshaw foundation that has published the results of human migration patterns in the last 200,000 years -- a product of the genome project.

12: Finally, I would invite any viewer and writer of your website to reply to me, even Mr. N Rajaram! Thanks for reading my boring beliefs.

Who ever you are, one thing is for sure -- you are as confused about our culture and history as I am! I went to a Catholic school, despite that I question the history as it is accepted today. Cartels seem to have a stangle hold on free information, in the fear that it might affect their religious and political agendas. So today fiction is fact and fact is suppressed!

I am certain of one thing, that a discontinuity was created by the colonialists and their masters, simply to confuse the heck out of all Indians -- then we become easy prey, for easy picking!! We fight against one another, forgetting our common ancestory and glorious history. In that melee, the subverts, the traitors, and thier sponsors thrive!! Now can we start seeing the game or play along for tactical gains!

The sad part is I spent so much time on so much of nonsense posting! Well I guess it makes me a bigger moron than you!

Honestly I did it in the hope that you wil first get educated properly, jettision your own biases and start seeing things not though the clouds of your prejudices but through the strength of your wisdom gained from knowledge.

Good luck to you in your quest for the truth!

Anonymous said...

We suck....Contrast this with China...
Ofcourse yes, we will be sucked when we have people like you let it suck. BTW, you are not the first one, we had similar people from time of Jaichands.

BTW, if you did not know Chinese history, it had all the problems India had. It was attacked by everybody, colonized during opium wars, raped by Japanese and now enslaved by foriegn ideology, communism.

Anonymous said...

Rajeev

I suspect this MITRA is a chinese. Our jaichands are far better than him.

Anonymous said...

san,

NDF is a ISI-supported terror organization based in Kerala. Their members have inflitrated into all political parties and they have also full support from Kerala govt. as well as CPM, since their agenda is to convert Kerala into another Kashmir. Just like the missionaries, they give fake support to Dalit rights while simultaneously involving in ethnic cleansing of the natives.
NDF activits pulled down the national flag in Kozhikode airport this year and hoisted the Pakistan flag, but the Kerala Govt. has given a clean chit to them. Their uniform is also similar to Pak army!! In a land where CPM worships Bin Laden and Saddam husein as saints, these organizations are fall under charitable human rights org. Yes, they have foreign funding especially from Gulf. They just need to make a demand, and Kerala muslims based in Gulf , even if they are poor, sends more than 10% of their salary. This happened in a friend's store in Gulf, so I know. Sadly even some Christians organizations silently support them since they can exploit the situation and grow only if they make Hindus and muslims fight.

Anonymous said...

Monotheism unites
Once a christian priest said in Kerala. Root cause of most of the troubles we have is that there are too many religions in the world. There should be only one religion and let that be Christianity :-o

Monothiesm unites when there is only one religion. When there are many it creates worst form animosity, intolerance and violence. It won't tolerate ideas which is different from what the religion propagates, remember persecution of Kepler etc. or see how Islamists persecute Ahmedias or Bahais. Monothiesm is useful to mobilize people against a perceived enemy. In the absence of an enemy its internal power structure will start corrupting from top.

Difference in polythiesm is that it can see God in others' God too. It doesn't let you become narrow minded. Hinduism is the religion for future because as people become more sophisticated they will become more tolerant and realize that there are many ways to see God. Higher levels of Hinduism doesn't say that God started everything on a particular day or God is waiting there to punish you for every mistake you do. It will stand for individual liberty for his choice of worship or not to worship a God at all.

Anonymous said...

mitra said...
I'm a humanist.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

So mitra is human! I didn't know that. Isn't he that ape from africa?

Anonymous said...

Dear B,
You deride the socialists, and talk like one. Check the comments above what Mitra says, and compare with your comments.

To give you a context, Mitra will deride hinduism all the time, but thinks people are against semitic religions ! In 18th century some of these were openly called as half converted christians, when the secular facade was not there.

Basically Missionaries have brainwashed and fucked their brains. Becuase whites didn't accept them and they had to suck from himduism, they talk whatever Macaulay has taught them.

For example, World is a set of problems, and nicely the solution is in value of history and philosophy ( But not philosophy of history), Macaulay has taught that it is historical philosophy instead, and the solution is in finding the aryan and dravidian.

If you don't know these, then a sincere advise is to take Ram nam, instead of succumbing to brainwashed macaluayites. If you think you are secular, then understand what Macalay has taught to his subjects.

Don't look at the aryan dravidian arguments. That will only make you a inferior macalayite, inferior than Mitra.

Anonymous said...

I was discussing this-worldly uses of religion. All religions provide a moral code which, being of supposedly divine origin, has greater acceptibility than man made laws. Religions also, in varying degree, promote cohesiveness among its followers. And, in this respect, monotheistic religions are far superior. They create a religious hierarchy, with their god at the apex.

What you see in monotheism is a political party similar to communist party or nazi party or even a bathist party or an organization which is capable of mobilizing people for a cause with a divine touch. It will work as long as individuals are brain washed. Once they understand a broader picture they will try to come out of that narrow mindset. Currently the two major monotheistic religion have so much hold on its people that it achieved during dark ages.

Polytheism allows for individual choice, and hence, leads to anarchy.
Yes, if that is applied to dumb people it can cause anarchy. If people's thought process matures they will opt for it.

Anonymous said...

The above Anonymous is right.

The majority, who venture, in haste, to express an opinion about 'Hinduism', do so, without doing their homework and the requisite qualifications.

Particularly culpable are the 'new age, self styled not -even- a -quarter- baked gurujis'(sic,sic,sic) who are misleading people claiming to reform 'Sanathana Dharmam'!!

Shun those who "paint a rose and gild a lily".


I stand by whatever I have posted hitherto about them in this blog in the past.

It is not just muslims and evangelists who hold out threats to the dissenters and whistle blowers; these 'hindu cultists' are equally dangerous and diabolical.

I am not making any vain allegation but stating the TRUTH!

Anonymous said...

Mitra is hiding stuff, it will work in 'you scratch my back and I will' type intelectual ghettoes of JNU agcnts, not before literate people.

Mitra should be asked to read the basis of his sayings, so that he doesn't think it as the final truth like a commie fanatic.


I was discussing this-worldly uses of religion. All religions provide a moral code which, being of supposedly divine origin, has greater acceptibility than man made laws

Anonymous said...

Mitra wrote: "Contrast this with China. Chinese civilization is as old as, if not older than India. And the Chinese were next door to all those steppe invaders - Huns, Mongols and Turks. But the Chinese have never been enslaved. They had no natural barrier; just a flat loess plain which facilitated invasions. So the Chinese had to build the great wall to keep invaders out. "

I am afraid Mitra is wrong on several counts. The Chinese suffered at the hands of the Japenese very badly (Remember ' the rape of Nanking?'). Then there were the opium wars, resulting the cedetion of their territory to the cunning Brits (Hong Kong). Also, the Chinese land is not plain as you think. It is very mountaneous for most part, the Chinese Wall straddles these mountains over long stretches. The land is also criss crossed by rivers such as the Yangtse.

....Nationalist

Anonymous said...

Mitra is a third rated, missionary funded, commie bastard.... licking Islamist's asses...

Anonymous said...

The marxists enslaved China and massacred a few millions. The Mitrokhins would say this is liberation. They are hesitant to do such liberation in India, for the it hurts to emmigrate from Bangalesh and settle elsewhere away from the lush green lands they had possessed.

Never the less the Mitrokhins liberate a couple of policemen and poor people every day. Shouldn't this liberation count while comparing with Mao's mass liberation ???




"Contrast this with China. Chinese civilization is as old as, if not older than India. And the Chinese were next door to all those steppe invaders - Huns, Mongols and Turks. But the Chinese have never been enslaved.

Anonymous said...

India was enslaved

Precisely, due to scoundrels like mitra.

Anonymous said...

darkstorm, did you check Bharat-Rakshak.com for your nuke questions?