Monday, October 24, 2005

nytimes: western technology junk ends up in poor countries

oct 24th
 
good scam, isn't it? 'aid' becomes poison.
 

47 comments:

Kalyani said...

The saying goes "waste never goes waste,it comes back to kill you"!

As shown in the movie 'Memento' I personally (empirically) have seen justice being done in SOME imperceptible way.

Our lot is in the safest hands possible---that of our 'Maker'!

No wonder,Swami Vivekananda wryly observes that the whole charade of spinning spiels,working out strategies etc is futile.More worthy would be cultivation of cultured values---simple living and high thinking.Internalising John Donne's saying "Everyman's death diminishes me".

God is in small details,so is the devil!

Joe Nation said...

I note that the creep quotes the old carnard about there not being a refuse dump in the third world. An ignorant thought from a person who has never been anywhere but his own backyard.

mitra said...

Kalyani said:

"No wonder,Swami Vivekananda wryly observes that the whole charade of spinning spiels,working out strategies etc is futile.More worthy would be cultivation of cultured values---simple living and high thinking.Internalising John Donne's saying "Everyman's death diminishes me"."

It is prescriptions like this which make Hindus look like fools, or worse, hypocrites. Kalyani, why are you using the Internet? It is a product of high technology. Manufacture of computers releases a lot of toxins in the environment. And how did you get to the US; riding on you ass or an aeroplane which so depletes the Ozone layer? And, how did Swami Vivekananda get to the Chicago conference; by swimming across the Atlantic?

There is a lot of difference between obsessive materialism( which is not linked to technology, and which even many Indians are) and using technology for betterment of life. As with everything, there is a troublesome side to technology: generation of waste. And there is nothing racial about dumping wastes in third world countries. It happens because :

1. Many Third world countries welcome waste processing as it generates wealth.

2. Thes countries have lax environmental laws: most of world's coke production, a highly polluting process, takes place in China. In fact, many Indian Steel plants import Steel grade Coke from China.

3.Waste processing is a labour intensive industry and suited to overpopulated countries.

4. The poor have to do with whatever comes their way.

And Kalyani, please don't quote Vivekananda selectively. Vivekananda was not against Technology. He wanted a strong, vigourous India, rather than the wimpy prescription which you advocate.

san said...

Mitra, regarding China's environmental laws, I wouldn't use a police state as a benchmark for sensitivity to public concerns on pollution, as they aren't very responsive to their public's concerns unless these mushroom into a large riot or other threat to the order.

mitra says "waste processing is a labour intensive industry suited to overpopulated countries"

mitra, overpopulated countries are generating plenty of waste themselves and have enough on their own to challenge them, thanks. What you're excusing is the practice of the rich basically paying the poor to take their trash. The producers of the trash should be dealing with the problem of their making themselves, instead of foisting it upon others. By your standard of reasoning, we can also declare sexual tourism and mail-order brides to be more "suited to overpopulated countries," where there are plenty of live bodies to choose from.

Yours doesn't sound like the classic position of the liberal that you selectively proclaim yourself to be. You sound more like a Contrary James than anything else. If people hear declare their concern against Global Warming, you'll be taking a contrarian stand just for the sake of it.

I agree that Indians do make useful business out of scrap processing, such as with scrapmetal from derelict ships. But that type of recycling activity is a far cry from dumping, which benefits no one in the host country except a few shallow profiteers acting at the expense of others.

Oh, but please do feel free to reply telling me what you think I "intended to say" rather than what I actually just said.

san said...

Oh yeah, before I forget, here's what I really came to post:

http://www.physorg.com/news7523.html

http://www.monolithicdome.com/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1013_051013_gene_patent.html

Some interesting links for reading.

mitra said...

San,

It appears that you are getting into what I "intended to say" rather than what I actually said.

I am presenting "what is" rather than "what should be".

One needs to bacome a contrary james at times because most readers on this blog seem to be fond of taking an absolutist position on various issues. This shows an inexperience of real world where nothing is all "black and white"

Even dumping of old PCs need not be taken as unmitigated evil. "obsolete" PCs may be a problem for Americans who are paranoid about their well being, but it is not an issue in India. Old, branded PCs are a boon to Indians and help to increase PC density. Indians are not in habit of discarding equipment at drop of a hat and an obsolete PC finds "life" in some remote STD/ISD booth which would otherwise never afforded a computer.

India is also importing a lot of other waste. Heaps of polyfill/synthetic warm cloathing "impoted from charities in the west" is sold in cities at throwaway prices. Today, you can find evn Rickshaw pullers wearing "Chicago bulls" jackets which protect him from the cold of Delhi's winters. So, shall we, who have a reasonably decent standard of living, sit in judgement and condemn americans for sumping , and Indians for importing non-biodegradable warm clothes.

Even Indian military is full of "waste" equipment. We have "obsolete" tentage, small arms and other equipment which has been superceded and hence, available at very low cost. So, shall we go for the best?

mitra said...

Nytimes concern for wellbeing of third world population is touching. However, it certainly is a plant by PC companies worried about declining PC sales.

DarkStorm said...

Hello all,
Just happened to read about Kancha Iliah's justification for taking the caste fight to the USA, in the Times of India.

I thought he was genuinely concerned, but wait!! Here is the summary of his article .

-We are oppressed.
-The US government is setting up lot of industry in India.
-We asked for reservations to Indian private Industry, which they refused.
-US industry partners Indian industry in many fields.
-There is lot of economic progress going on, and we are not part of it.
-Force US to pressure Indian Industry to provide reservations.


So, it is not about oppression, it is about forcing indian Industry to part with the money.

First of all, I am a cybercoolie and I have people of all castes(including me, casteless) working with me. I hardly know about who is a SC or who is uppercaste. The few I know about is from others. And it has not affected my relations with anyone.

Industry looks for skills and not for caste. Is it logical to introduce caste here, when the very reason why industry exists is to get maximum returns, regardless of caste. How can it compete, when it has to fill 70% of its staff from some communities.

Mitra, why dont we discuss AIT at some other place, like your blog, if you want. I still dont understand how we are Nordic, when the farthest they have gone is Greenland in NA, and Normandy France in Europe. I read up some more stuff on AIT during the weekend. Max Muller says he based it on linguistic commonalities, and not on any historical/archeological/ scientific evidence.

To the anonymous syrian christist from Kerala, (all, i know its kerala, this anon guy spelt it as such, so it was a take on him...),
I thought you were sane and intended no malice, but you seemed to justify conversions. And you say the wooden cross is not holy !??. Do you know the origin of the phrase "touch wood". You guys are as much idol-worshippers, as we are. And tell me , what actually, is wrong with idol worship. Give me good logical reasons. Everywhere you have gone with your conversion agendas, you have killed local cultures. I know you guys are not as crazy as those bearded mullahs, but nevertheless, you have no right to slander Hinduism, when Christism is filled with divisions, contradictions, myths, illogical statements and paganism. Did you know medieval churches actually had exorcists. LMAO.

Anonymous said...

Yes. mitra is contrary james and an idiot and a racist.

mitra said...

Why is racial prejudice such a bad thing but religious prejudice is something to be lauded? Dont forget; Race is biological, while religion is totally man made. Man made concepts are no match for nature.Ultimately, it is Darwinism which prevails.

Anonymous said...

A lot of breeds of dogs are man-made too. Nothing to do with nature.

mitra said...

Anonymous said...

A lot of breeds of dogs are man-made too. Nothing to do with nature.

Is that the best you can come up with?

Anonymous said...

The precious nordic genes you seem to have is also man-made. The result of out-breeding.

mitra said...

Me and my genes are not important. Stick to the point. I asked you why is it that religious prejudice is desirable but racial prejudice is not? Are you one of those who display their weakness through ad hominem attacks?

Anonymous said...

Me and my genes are not important.

So you are saying you don't have those nordic genes? You are just ordinary?

DarkStorm said...

Mitra said
Why is racial prejudice such a bad thing but religious prejudice is something to be lauded?

I dont laud any of these prejudices, racial or religious. The point is, regardless of race, we are all Hindus and all Indians. Again the same could be said for religion, but jehadis and christists should understand that too. It is they who are prejudiced against us. And we have been tolerant for too long. Forget that a person is from the south or north, or aryan or not, atleast they are not killing us in the name of religion.

We are being forced into this prejudice. I think we have tried to accomodate jehadis and christists, but got prejudice in return.

It does not make sense anymore to not hold prejudices against them. I dont hold any prejudices against Buddhism or Sikhism. Because they dont have any against me( or if they have, it is much too less ). Same cannot be said for jehadis and christists. I thought christists can be sensible, but seeing the posts of AnonFromKerala, I dont think they are too friendly, and still think idol worship is bad, when they themselves do it.
He still hasnt responded to BlackPanthers post quoting the Bible.
Idol worship does not literally mean idol worship. It is any kind of symbolism to represent God, be it an idol, a stone building in a desert or a stone grave, a wooden cross or a picture/idol of Jesus.

I still recall, too much slander is printed in our school texts, like Hindus indulge in idol-worship. No wonder, it is decided by marxist and jehadis, haboob and thappar mata. Anyone, give me one good reason and precedent to give up idol worship and I will give it up.

The other day, some news channel reported about the govt plans to curb animal sacrifice on Diwali. Good, I am very much in favour of it. But do you stop jehadis from slaughtering goats and humans on their festivals. Valid questions. Answer them.

DarkStorm said...

Mitra - Dont forget; Race is biological, while religion is totally man made


Is this why you are desparate to prove the AIT right.

DarkStorm said...

mitra, elsewhere you posted that if you give religion too much importance, it leads to a weak nation.

Well, we dont want to. We are being forced into it. If we dont, we are the ones who are going to be wiped out.

DarkStorm said...

mitra said
Are you one of those who display their weakness through ad hominem attacks?


I am not one of them. But I do notice you did the same thing earlier when I asked some uncomfortable questions. See one and the same thing, you discriminate on caste and race, we on religion.
Nature does not teach you to go out and kill other humans, without reason. It is religions like jehadi and christists which do.

mitra said...

Darkstorm

I appreciate all that you have said. But tell me; what is the strategy. Even hate should be focussed for some tangible gains. So, what is the Hindutva strategy? We have about 150 million Muslims in India, more than the total population of most countries. What is the Hindutva strategy for dealing with the "Muslim problem".

Hate without objective may win the BJP a few votes in the next elections(not likely to bring it to power though), but it is not likely to benefit the Hindus much.

Anonymous said...

mitra, do you still have those nordic genes in your system? or has it dissolved and come out through your rear-end?

DarkStorm said...

You just cant allow yourself to be slaughtered like a meek lamb then, can you mitra. See, unless you know the enemy, you cannot fight them.

Even hate should be focussed for some tangible gains.
Cant you see the gains. Awareness, confidence in who we are, pride. These are the gains. The truth. Is that not enough. I am tired of listening to lies about Hinduism, the demonization of Hinduism, for extracting more concessions, which cheap sawdust filled politicians readily agree to.

What is the Hindutva strategy for dealing with the "Muslim problem".
Forget Hindutva. The leaders during 1947 are going to be abused/cursed for a long time to come. Maybe we will keep defending ourselves forever against these jehadi pigs.
The jehadi menace is a reality. They are really a menace now. Neither do they live , nor let us live.

The strategy is nothing. There is no strategy as far as I can see. The only way out is to take some harsh steps, which I do not think these sekoolars can take, nor that poetic party. If we are not even aware of the games, we cannot save ourselves. We probably cannot do anything about the jehadi menace. But we can atleast save ourselves from their attacks , if we are united and if we are aware. You know what, neither can they do anything about us, we are far more numerous than them as of now. They can carry out their petty conversion games. And sometimes, attack. In about 100 years, we might equal up in numbers. Till then, we can keep fending off their attacks. Nothing much we can do , really.

And by the way, your AIT set of lies and casteism, isnt doing us much good either. If these jehadis and christists wage a war on us, do you think so called lower castes and so called higher castes will be spared ?!?

Enough of your questions, answer mine now.

DarkStorm said...

Neither can jehadis and christists do anything about us. We are far too numerous to convert/kill by money/terror.

The worst thing is they will keep pestering us, like flies. Neither will they prosper and live with harmony, nor they will allow us to.

Just the fact that we beware of them, (like those "Beware of Dog" signs), will help us a lot.

mitra said...

AIT is a theory. So it cannot be truth or lies. It can only be probable or improbable. And it appears to be far more probable than "Out of India" theory.

DarkStorm said...

Dont forget . We are being forced into it. We do not care whether you are christist or jehadis. We worship a thousand gods, and have no problem worshipping another two. But dont expect us to leave our identity, our culture. I dont want to see our future generations of India, running around with AK-47s and swords on the streets.

Anonymous said...

where were you for the past 30 minutes, mitra? To get the daily quota of nordic genes into your system?

DarkStorm said...

hey hey wait mitra. There is nothing black and white. Does there have to be a OIT instead of AIT. Why cant we be what we are. One single race.

The supposed OIT theory (true or false , I dont really care ) , gives a time frame of the period when humans moved out of Africa.

Oh come on now, remember, all humans, all humans regardless of anything else, have originated from Africa. The entire human race. Now can you get beyond that. Now dont tell me north africa or south africa.

DarkStorm said...

I am tired of this AIT... ok. you are right. tell me. If it is true, then what. ?

AIT is true , jai ho thapar maata kee. haboob jehadi kee.

Now what. !!

Anonymous said...

I am tired of mitra's nordic genes too.

mitra said...

Are you suggesting:

1. That Homo sapiens evolved in East Africa. (accepted fact)
2. H.sapiens migrated to various parts of the world incl india through then existent land bridge and on rafts around 65,000-70,000 yrs (another accepted fact)
3. That these migrants to India have remained in the sub-continent ever since and have evolved into present day Indians. They were also originators of the Harrapa civ and Vedic civ.

is that so?

Anonymous said...

is mitra an ape from africa or does he really have those nordic genes?

DarkStorm said...

anonymous, whether an ape or nordic genes, he still has evolved from apes in africa, like you and I have.

mitra, that is what I meant. There might be minor movements of people. Between out of africa and the Indus valley civ, there is a huge time gap. There were many tribes migrating to India in small numbers, like the Kushans and Shakas from central asia, Huns from the Steppes, and so on. There was no mass migration or invasion. There were no people riding down the mountain passes on chariots driven by four horses.

DarkStorm said...

Ok, can we proceed.

AIT be true. Ok, it happened. So, now what does it prove.

mitra said...

There are several problems with this theory that make it impossible

1. Migrants from Africa were Negritos(as they are today). 95% Indians are Caucasians. Negritos cannot evolve into Caucasioans in India's sunny climate.

2. The Iranian Zend Avesta is so similar to Vedas that it is often called the 5th Veda. There had to be a movement either Into or from India for religious books to be adopted.

3. Sanskrit is, uncontroversially, a language of Indo-european family. This again requires migration from or to India. Language spread by dominant migration; not through casual contacts or trade links.

mitra said...

But, as I said before; I do not understand the brahuha over AIT. What if it is true? Its too long back in the past.

Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded Britain around 1200 yrs ago. They pushed the Celtic tribes into Scotland, Wales and Ireland(and also intermingled with them in England). The latin tongue of Celts was replaced by a Germanic language - English.

But we do not find a movement in England denying invasion by Angles-Jutes and Saxons or saying that this splits the society.

DarkStorm said...

There are several problems with this theory that make it impossible

1. Migrants from Africa were Negritos(as they are today). 95% Indians are Caucasians. Negritos cannot evolve into Caucasioans in India's sunny climate.
-----
We arent exactly caucasians, we are browns.


2. The Iranian Zend Avesta is so similar to Vedas that it is often called the 5th Veda. There had to be a movement either Into or from India for religious books to be adopted.
Who says so. This is one of the funniest posts I have seen from you, after all your attempts at humour earlier. So aryans came from iran or what. or iranians have nordic genes.

3. Sanskrit is, uncontroversially, a language of Indo-european family. This again requires migration from or to India. Language spread by dominant migration; not through casual contacts or trade links.
I am working out of my home state now. I have learnt quite a lot of local language in 3 years. Do you think it is really so difficult.

Now, before you call me pig-headed, I seriously do not believe in all such arguments in favour of AIT. Even if there have been minor movement of people, long before recorded history, enough time has passed, and they themselves dont know their origins.

My point is that, if jehadis can form 20% of our population from 4% within a span of 60 years, why cannot the genes of small migrating groups spread in Indian gene pool, in over 80% population, over a span of 10,000 years. Why this has not happened in other countries on a larger scale, is because, it happened much before recorded history for us. And since medieval periods, no country has taken kindly to migrations from other lands.

Are you arguing just for the sake of argument. AIT is true. Now what..... the point please.

mitra said...

BTW, it may interest you to know that most ICS officers were Scots. The English were more in the merchant class.

mitra said...

Indians are Caucasians. There is no race called brown.

DarkStorm said...

But, as I said before; I do not understand the brahuha over AIT. What if it is true? Its too long back in the past.

Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded Britain around 1200 yrs ago. They pushed the Celtic tribes into Scotland, Wales and Ireland(and also intermingled with them in England). The latin tongue of Celts was replaced by a Germanic language - English.

That has been proven. AIT hasnt been yet. You might find genetic differences between the Celts and AngloSaxons. Irish, commonly have red hair, though both are white.

But we do not find a movement in England denying invasion by Angles-Jutes and Saxons or saying that this splits the society. The reason is that it has been proven, and they have a common culture. Did you forget the Norman invasions into Britain. There is nothing to suggest Aryan invasion or migration. As I said earlier, there might be lot of people moving around before borders were defined, but no Aryan Invasion.

I get your point. We deny it not because it splits the society, but because it is blatantly false. It is another matter that this false theory has been pushed to further the north-south divide, and to justify British colonialism.

mitra said...

check up this link. A bit technical, but covers most evidences.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.htm

DarkStorm said...

Indians are Caucasians. There is no race called brown.


Well whatever you call it. Does not matter much.

The point being, history is not being denied here. It is a lie that is being proven as such. If some jehadi pigs lookin for money invaded us, they did. But if there were no aryans, then there were no aryans. Come on , forget it. I am tired of this topic, and come what may, I have read and seen enough to trash AIT as false, and handiwork of a German national, looking at few common terms in languages.

In fact now, after exchanging lot more posts with you, it seems OIT is a more plausible theory, though it happened way too much before Indus valley civilization.

Now, cant I guess what your intention behind AIT is. You say, if aryans came here around 3000 years ago and they are Indians, why are jehadis and christists not, who came here 1000 years ago. Firstly, AIT doesnt seem to be true. You did say that it is not yet proven. No written records exist. No archaeological evidence found. Now, even if we assume AIT true, aryans *merged* with Indians. They did not continue to spew venom against India or Indians.
Also, most jehadis and christists are converts, carrying Indian blood. And they really dont want to assimilate in the society. They are a menace to us , and will remain so.

And hey AnonFromKerala, if you read this, it just struck me that if you claim that evangelicals protestants are not really christists, then can you tell me why the Pope asks them to harvest souls.

DarkStorm said...

I saw that. It was posted earlier. And also ripped apart by someone else.

DarkStorm said...

Whoa... that link. Now it tries to prove that Indians are actually Persians.... This is getting really funny. So, do you think we look like Iranians in any way. Do we have lot of hair on our body :D, like a bear. Do our women have moustaches. Ohh, just so silly. Come on now mitra, do you really believe that now. You said aryans were from central asia/nordics.
Now Iranians ?!!? ROFLMAO.

Man, the level to which some stupid people can stoop, to get their degree. Eg, Romila Thappar, irfan haboob, etc.

See, mitra, there are lot of commonalities amongst languages. The word for "no", starts with an N in most major languages of the world. Linguistic commonalities do not prove anything.

mitra said...

Since your arguements are so overwhelming, I shall leave it at that.

mitra said...

Darkstorm said:
" Whoa... that link. Now it tries to prove that Indians are actually Persians.... This is getting really funny.

That is the problem if you read the refutations before you know the theory.

DarkStorm said...

Thats great. Let us leave it at that. Now I dont want another link linking us with the arabs, after iranians.

I must say that even if AIT is true, they *merged*, and *assimilated* into the Indian society, and did not go around burning trains, slandering and slaughtering Indians.

Anonymous said...

That leaves my question still unanswered.

is mitra an ape from africa or does he really have those nordic genes?