Thursday, October 06, 2005

times uk: catholic church says bible is not exactly correct

oct 6

finally, an admission of fallibility. so if the bible is wrong here and there, does it mean yahweh was wrong here and there? like on alternate days or something? does that mean yahweh, is, gulp, not infallible? and that the bible is not *literally* correct?

does the possibility arise that the whole thing is wrong, then?

is being a little incorrect like being a little pregnant?

and why is this not mentioned at all in indian papers? that was a rhetorical question. we know why it is not.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html

does that mean then that yahweh is not quite the big boss? there have been claims that he is actually a second-class demi-god originally called ialdabaoth who forcibly claimed big-boss-hood. which is why he is a jealous god. but his mother tells him off (see below).

from the gnostic gospels unearthed at nag hammadi (the dead sea scrolls):

Ialdabaoth, becoming arrogant in spirit, boasted himself over all
those who were below him, and explained, "I am father, and God, and
above me there is no one." His mother, hearing him speak thus, cried
out against him, "Do not lie, Ialdabaoth ; for the father of all, the
primal anthropos, is above you."


sounds a bit like the purusha, the primal anthropos, doesn't it? the gnostics borrowed heavily from hindu and buddhist sources. and the christist gospels borrowed heavily from gnostic sources.

16 comments:

S said...

Rajeev,
My personal opinion on the simillarity stuff - Once I happened to see a catholic channel, and beyond the prayers, I found they are generalizing a lot of misinformed stuff on 'secret' and stuff like that in ancient Rome, so I could stand it for 10 mins or so. but once I was reading few pages of bible, few pages because it took me by surprise their contents, and I could read few pages in 3/4 hours spread over days. There is simillarity to the hindu scriptures, I found a direct equivalence in some stuff that is attempted to conveyed ( obviously not in lucid way as in modern literature] in a puran type story, usually these are not final in a literal way in hinduism , because of supporting literature with different meanings . I found that, the powerful christian institutes ( going by the conversion, love for hindus at the instutional level, their own logic in the channels and stuff like that) don't understand even what is written there, they just repeat with a big mouth .
Anyway that is none of my business as long as the whole thing is part of religion for self purposes only.

Anonymous said...

I reside in the US. Once Yahowah Witness missionaries came home and I welcomed them in to hear what they had to say. The leader had a well used leather bound old-testament and it had a book marker in it. He started off the conversation by asking me what religion I belonged to. I told him that I come from India and my ancestors were the followers of Sanatana Dharma and today I am popularly referred to as a Hindu. Then he asked me what the biggest problem the world faced -- for wahtever reason, without blinking once I told him that the nexus between commercial interests, politics and organized religion posed the biggest threat. His mouth opened wide and he opened the page with the book marker and there it was, written in black and white, exactly as I had said it. He said that is what God has said in the Bible about the coming of the Messiah and the destruction of evil. He then asked me how I knew the answer, to which I told him that this is what Lord Krishna says in Hindu purana, Mahabharatha, when he enlightens Arjuna! So there seem to be overlaps!!

Anonymous said...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GJ07Df02.html

Another story for the Mitrokhin archives. Hope the commies don't bring down the govt over this Iran thing - seems that this issue has a very long decay time.

Anonymous said...

The gnostic Gospels were written after the canonical Gospels. Reliable scientific evidence dates all of the Nag Hammadi documents to late second century and early third century. It is only pseudo-historians, like yourself, that "date" the gnostic Gospels before the canonical Gospels based on some historical fantasy. So the"christist gospels borrowed heavily from gnostic sources" based on what evidence? If the Christist gospels borrowed so heavily from gnostic sources why was gnosticism declared a heresy by most of orthodox Christianity?

As for Ialdabaoth, the demiurge is more like Uranus of Greek mythology - in fact there are more similarities between Greek mythology and gnosticism than gnosticism and Christianity. But even gnostic thought acknowledged that Christ was born of a virgin...

"And the image of Ialdabaoth, reflected upon matter, became the Serpent-Spirit, Satan, the Evil Intelligence. Eve, created by Ialdabaoth, had by his Sons children that were angels like themselves. The Spiritual light was withdrawn from man by Sophia, and the world surrendered to the influence of evil; until the Spirit, urged by the entreaties of Wisdom, induced the Supreme Being to send Christos to redeem it. Compelled, despite himself, by his Mother, Ialdabaoth caused the man Jesus to be born of a Virgin; and the Celestial Savior, uniting with his Sister, Wisdom, descended through the regions of the seven angels ... and entered with his sister into the man Jesus at the baptism in Jordan."

But let us take the example of the "mythology" of Ram. Why if there is no proof that Ram ever existed on earth that you keep harping about his temple? Must be the "neo-liberal" outlook. As though rebuilding his temple will somehow mysteriously bring back Ram Rajya.

san said...

Heh, has anyone seen this jazzy feminist version of Ramayana, called Sitayana:

http://www.ninapaley.com/Sitayana/

I got a kick out of this. :)

Anonymous said...

Anonymous wrote: "But let us take the example of the "mythology" of Ram. Why if there is no proof that Ram ever existed on earth that you keep harping about his temple? Must be the "neo-liberal" outlook. As though rebuilding his temple will somehow mysteriously bring back Ram Rajya."

If you believe in the mythology of Christ, then what is wrong in our belief in Ram?
Rebuilding Ram temple is for the same reason as the U.S.A. is rebuilding the twin towers in New York: civilized, cultured people want to rebuild what was lost to barbarians.

nizhal yoddha said...

christist anonymous guy: you are accepting that jesus and ram are both equally mythical? the issue is that you all run around claiming that jesus was real and that ram was mythical. fact is that it is probably the exact opposite: ram was real and jesus is a figment of paul/saul's very fertile imagination.

the fact that there is not a *single* accepted relic of jesus is a good indication of his non-existence. remember the fuss in 2003 over a bone casked inscribed, 'brother of jesus'. well, turned out it was fake, like all other alleged jesus relics. including the twelve or thirteen jesus foreskins that are worshipped in various places. and the shroud of turin which is a 10th century ce fake.

the gnostic gospels were written before the christist gospels, which took their final shape after the council of nicae, which was if i remember correctly 325 ce. the best scientific (carbon dating) evidence dates the gnostic gospels to 200-100 BCE (not CE), ie a few hundred years before. so there's ample chance for the borrowing. also, historical evidence from josephus flavius, the famous historian, puts the gnostic gospels in the BCE timeframe.

why did the christists declare the gnostics a heresy after stealing a lot of ideas from them? why, this is pretty standard for christism: steal ideas and then condem the culture from which it stole the ideas. eg. the druids from whom christism swiped the winter solstice celebration and renamed it christmas.

what happened at the council of nicae is that a group of fanatic extremists (ayatollahs?) wrested control of christism. they declared everyone who was not part of their clique a heretic and proceeded to liquidate them usually by burning them at the stake. for instance the albigensians and nestorians. at nicae, the gnostics were declared heretics, but their ideas were swiped.

as for good old ialdabaoth, i am not sure what your quotation is saying. it seems to indicate ialdabaoth had something to do with the Other Guy, satan. and also that ialdaboath *is* yahweh, since he creates adam and eve. poor ialdabaoth is pretty seriously hen-pecked by his mother, eh? not a real good connection for yahweh to be acknowledged as ialdabaoth, you know. and eve had children by ialdabaoth's sons? curiouser and curioser. wasn't eve supposed to be impregnated by adam, her husband?

and where is this quotation from, anyway?

infww said...

Only low IQ people believe in Jesus. In India, Christians believe in Jesus because they wanna be like the Whites. Shame on them. I request the Christians to give up this attitude and go back to Hinduism. There is a better way to deal with inferiority complex than to convert just to be like Whites.

Anonymous said...

Interestingly, all these christist Indians who want to be like whites, on immigrating to the west, find that they usually don't fit into the white circles. Therefore, they usually simply resort to associating with christists of Indian origin, or even regular Indians. This is evident among christists among other ethnicities where churches and even cemetaries are different for whites, blacks, Koreans, and Chinese. It's quite amusing - these are the people who would criticize a "caste system".

This Times link about admitting to falsification of the "bible" also mysteriously doesn't work anymore, although a google search reveals that it has been referenced and quoted by many websites, therefore having existed.

Shankar said...

This news is not suprising at all. Just look at the Catholic church of India and how they have been fooling the innocent low IQ souls with their Thoma lies, Therasa gimmicks and plagiarizing the Hindu art forms and culture.

In a way we should thank our PM in acknowledging the fact that conversion terrorism has disturbed communal harmony (of course terrorists like Thampu, Dayals will bark against this) in India.

Good thing is locals have also started to realize the evil plans of Christist priests and have started to respond positively. Recent example is the de-frocking of Theresa missionaries in a tribal colony in Kerala. With more and more people getting literate and educated, frocklings would find it hard to survive. These parasites survive only in poor, underdeveloped, illiterate areas where the ancestors of our 'Chritisist anonymous' probably lived.

As someone mentioned, where do the christist Indians bury their dead in US - among whites? In Kerala, the harijan X-ians have separate cemetry. Also those who have questioned the Church in their life, will get a separate 'discriminatory area' for their dead body. These scums who discriminate even the dead bodies talk about the 'caste system' as if they get an orgasm from it!

But everyone should be aware of the frockling mischiefs. They love to build a church near temples after 'convincing' the locals that the mythical Thomas had walked through that area or will dig out a stone and say it was installed by that Thomas!! We had seen this in Nilakkal near Sabarimala, where a Christian minister bribed a local to put a cement cross near his shed in Nilakkal area, rest is history and handled well by the frockling terrorists. Today they are doing similar stuff near Tirupathi hills. Their terrorist acts are very similar. I wonder whether Vatican's terror unit -Opus dei -is the brain here. Today they have planted moles everywhere, total media control (Jeevan TV, Manorama, journalist priests from semen-aries, etc), and even the RAW is headed by a syrian X-ian!

Anonymous said...

"ram was real and jesus is a figment of paul/saul's very fertile imagination."

Nice try Nizhal Yoddha - you do not have any accepted historical evidence to back this, have you? All you have to do is fling some shit to see what sticks and that passes for "history".

"the fact that there is not a *single* accepted relic of jesus is a good indication of his non-existence. remember the fuss in 2003 over a bone casked inscribed, 'brother of jesus'. well, turned out it was fake, like all other alleged jesus relics."

Really? then you have probably read the entire brouhaha about the casket that forced the Israeli Antiquities Authority to reexamine their entire hypothesis of it being "fake".

"the gnostic gospels were written before the christist gospels, which took their final shape after the council of nicae, which was if i remember correctly 325 ce. the best scientific (carbon dating) evidence dates the gnostic gospels to 200-100 BCE (not CE), ie a few hundred years before."

First, the council of Nicea decided what would constitute the Bible not what the gospels said. The individual books of the Bible existed and was read in Churches before the Council of Nicea. The synoptic gospels were written before the gnostic gospels - the commonly accepted timeframe for the gnostic gospels are late second century which puts it after the synoptic Gospel of John. The synoptic Gospel of John is commonly accepted to be the latest of the four Gospels.

The most comprehensive work on dating the synoptic Gospels is a book called "Redating the New Testament" by John T Robinson and published in 1976 - Matthew between 40 and 60, Mark from 45 to 60, Luke from 55 to 62, and John from 40 to 65 (years are in AD). In contrast, none of the historians have accepted a BCE date for the gnostic gospels - the earliest proposed dates were 50 - 150 AD for Gospel of Thomas which has since been corrected to 200 AD at the earliest.

"also, historical evidence from josephus flavius, the famous historian, puts the gnostic gospels in the BCE timeframe"

This is pure BS. Flavius Josephus has never mentioned any of the gnostic gospels - many historians contend he did not even mention Jesus (the very mention of Jesus' name in his work is a matter of contention) or the synoptic gospels, why would he mention the gnostic gospels? Besides, his earliest work is dated to the end of the first century AD which puts it well after the synoptic Gospel of Mark (the first Gospel).

I am just pointing out that according to the gnostic gospels you seem to trust so much, Jesus Christ is mentioned in it as a descendent of the "primal anthropos" and so is Thomas. So much for the mythology but then what else can you expect from a phallic worshipper?

As for the posts regarding burying the dead there are no "white" cemeteries anymore.

"the U.S.A. is rebuilding the twin towers in New York: civilized, cultured people want to rebuild what was lost to barbarians."

which is all fine and dandy but you lost in AD 1524 (if you believe that Babar actually demolished the temple) and does it actually take more than 481 years to rebuild what was lost to barbarians? That is some "garv". But why stop there? Surely if you turn the clock back you can "garv se kaho" that you were a monkey.

Anonymous said...

Aha, the Christist doesn't believe in evolution (see comment about monkeys above.)

So the world was created by (the demiurge) Yahweh at 10am on October 21st, 4004 BC, I suppose.

All that fossil evidence that is millions of years old. Well, Yahweh created all that also and made it look like it was millions of years old. Yahweh can do that as he is all powerful.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

No wonder you believe Jesus existed.

You ought to have your head examined.

Kalyani said...

We have not rebuilt our Sri Ramar temple yet,as we are still under the thraldom of vatican and mullahs.

Don't worry,when the temple comes up,you would be getting barbecued in 'Rowravam' along with your popes.

nizhal yoddha said...

i wouldnt knock josephus flavius if i were you, christist. because flavius is the *only* contemporary historian (and there were many, as the romans kept meticulous records) who even mentions jesus once. albeit, as you point out, the mention by flavius is considered a fake and a later extrapolation. but most christists hang on to this forlornly as 'proof' of the existence of jesus, since there is no other 'proof'.

the very first mention of jesus is in a letter from paul/saul about 40 CE, which means that's when paul/saul got the brainwave about manufacturing the jesus myth. the timeframes you provide for your gospels are impossible. your source mentioned is probably a christist fundamentalist.

by the way, i dont know why you are called christists, you should be called paulists, as paul/saul invented your religion and all that goes with it.

as for worship, it's rich that you accuse others of strange worship.

Let's see. given a choice of:

1. phallus worship
2. worship of a dead arab's corpse
3. worship of the dead arab's foreskin

clearly christists go for 2 and 3. and that's non-barbaric?

as for that foreskin, pretty miraculous that jesus had 13 of them. was he growing it back so quickly so it could be harvested? and why didn't it go to heaven with jesus along with the rest of his body?

read the wikipedia entry on this item. the holy foreskin was 'sweet-scented'. it became the 'rings of saturn' (!). it was presented as a 'wedding ring' to 'saint catherine'. ROTFL.

even the catholic church has become embarrassed about the holy foreskin lately. so they have some shame, or more likely it was hindering their marketing efforts as people were laughing about it.

Kalyani said...

Sri Rama IS REAL and ETERNAL!

I know xian anonymous would be disappointed.

I am narrating a real incident which took place in Puri.

Sri Bodhendra,whose name in full is 'Bhagavan Nama Bodhendra Saraswati' was the 59th pontiff of the 'Kanchi Kamakoti Pitham'.

When He arrived at Puri once ,He met a brahmin couple;the lady had been molested and carried away by a muslim during a journey and were united again due to lucky circumstances.However she felt "polluted" and prostrated before Sri Bodhendra Swamigal.

He instructed the lady to present herself at the Pushkarini of Sri Puri Jagannatha Swami temple,clad in the clothes of a muslim and take bath in the holy waters after uttering 'Sri Rama Nama'.

To the surprise of all,the lady came out of the waters dressed as a Hindu with 'kumkumam'(vermilion mark) on her forehead!The whole crowd then chanted 'Rama Nama'.

So, carping anonymice,the efficacy of His Name too is vindicated!

Anonymous said...

Nizhal Yoddha, make up your mind - you quote the gnostic gospels as some sort of authority on the Christists religion and they, according to you, are dated BC (based on some esoteric evidence) and then you claim that there is no "evidence". Then you quote Flavius Josephus, as though mentioning his name will automatically add some sort of legitimacy to your quotes, explicitly stating that he "puts the gnostic gospels in the BCE timeframe." He did no such thing - the entire Antiquities, Jewish Wars and Testimonium Flavianum is online, from multiple translations. Most historians accept the authenticity of Flavius Josephus mention of Jesus - I was not dismissing Flavius Josephus for his mention of Jesus but for "puts the gnostic gospels in the BCE timeframe."

All of your "evidence" appears to be from your buddy Sitaram Goel's "amazing" book which is a rehash of all the "Jesus Myth" theories about Christ and quite frankly, is a waste of time.

"the very first mention of jesus is in a letter from paul/saul about 40 CE, which means that's when paul/saul got the brainwave about manufacturing the jesus myth"

Riiight. So Paul/Saul employed as many people as he could "inspire" and got them to write the rest of the Gospel as fairy tales for his kids. He then went to Rome intending to meet Ceaser and the Senate and maybe take them out on a Jewish golf game, drink some cheap wine and "sell" them the story of Christianity. But they weren't buying yet. So he was thrown to the lions and one of his successors succeeded in "convincing" Constantine and presto! Christianity became the state religion and was suddenly the largest religion.

And thus was born Sex, Lies and Papyrus the prequel to Sex, Lies and Videotape starring (drum roll please) Nizhal Yoddha and the in-phallic-able khakhis.

(ROTFL)

"the timeframes you provide for your gospels are impossible. your source mentioned is probably a christist fundamentalist."

Yeah why not? If it doesn't match your's or Sitaram Goel's conclusions the source must be a "fundamentalist".

"even the catholic church has become embarrassed about the holy foreskin lately. so they have some shame, or more likely it was hindering their marketing efforts as people were laughing about it."

A lot more was worshipped - the Breath of Joseph, Jesus' Hair Trimmings etc. I think there was a Channel 4 (UK) documentary about it too. But the point is, why are you still continuing to worship the phallus, if you are so enlightened when the rest of the world including the Catholic Church has stopped worshipping the foreskin? Is the Hindu religion still in the dark ages or perhaps its the shape that is confusing or is that how you perform safe sex? (ROTFL)

And yes, would you please check your eyes? Just so that you can tell the difference between a Jew and an Arab (nope the foreskin won't help you on this one).

And if you do read the Wikipedia, you will find that the Jesus Myth hypothesis has been completely discredited.