Saturday, November 25, 2006

'dravidians' acting all imperial

nov 25th, 2006

there is a dam in kerala, at mullaperiyar in the western ghats.

the dam stores water from a kerala river.

if the dam bursts, the damage will be in kerala.

the water stored in the dam goes to tamil nadu.

the dam stands on land leased by tamil nadu from kerala.

the dam is in bad shape, and is suspected to be crumbling.

water flowed over the dam and caused a highway in kerala to be washed away.

the reaction of the neo-semitic 'dravidians'? they dont want navy experts to inspect the dam for possible damage. they destroyed 40 kerala state buses.

really smart guys, these.

this is exactly why the entire south is just dying to secede from india to form 'dravidastan'.

the same guys have been up in arms (the famous christist-paul-dhinkaran-pal and ports minister t r baalu, 'dravidian' minister at the center) about preventing vizhinjam port from coming up in kerala. however, they have quietly initiated work on the competing colachel port.

'dravidians' are totally insane. it might be a good idea to eject any 'dravidian' and ship him off to a new 'dravidian' homeland, to be created in pakistan. or in palestine. or the arctic.


Ghost Writer said...


The 'Dravidians' in Tamil Nadu are surely a first - though not the kind of first (progressive et al.) they would have us believe them to be
For sometime now - I have been troubled by the question 'When did the political class/political office in India fall into the hands of goons?' or 'When did muscle first take over when to comes to political machinery?' For a while I though that UP and Bihar exemplify this phenomenon and it must have started there. However, I have concluded that it is actually the beef-eating, idol-smashing, 'Dravidian' Anna-waadis who are the progenitor of muscle taking over substance.

They may have cloaked this in the fancy garb of linguistic pride or 'social justice' (another TN first); but the plain and simple truth is that Periyar and his ilk have been nothing but fascists that do not allow other points of view to exist. They do this very simply by verbal and physical intimidation. Look at Tamil intellectuals (Kamal Hasan, Rajnikant etc.) and see how it is criminal in TN to even suggest Periyar 'could' have been wrong. They said idol-smashing is 'rationalist', however they are the ones with the biggest political personality cults. Anyone seen 'giant cut outs' of politicians in Chennai? Or how mindless idiots roll in the streets to please their leaders?

Sometime ago I met the son of a famous 'Dravidian' minister. This young man (educated incidentally on foreign shores and now wishing to immigrate - wonder why TN is not good enough) wishes to divide India up into North and South as everyone knows about the 'Aryan' invasion. When I told him of new evidence including genetic evidence that points to this being untrue - he said he has not hard of such evidence nor does he want to. It says clearly in the party manifesto (alas yet another 'People of the Book') that poor 'Dravidian' were driven out of the land and that is the way it will be. TN is the only place where a politician named Stalin 'fights' elections!

And in case I hear the 'anti-Tamil' curse being hurled at me - I do not begrudge them their language-based chauvinism. I think everyone must have pride in their language. Except the DMK actually has a committee to 'cleanse' Tamil of Sanskritic influence. A 'rationalist' way to develop your language indeed :-) Or perhaps they wish to move from 'Proto-Indo-Aryan' to 'Proto-Dravidian' at full speed ! That would be one way to prove the AIT - cleanse Tamil of Sanskrit words and then say - 'look Tamil is not at all like Sanskrit'

However, I think the end is near for them. Hindu awakening in the land of Bharti is inevitable - the speedier the economic growth the faster this awakening will come.

Harish said...

Hi guys

I dont mean to throw any 'anti Tamil'invectives on ppl here!..!!!.I had a few observations in general about many of these topics, espesicially Dravidinism...and the usual Tamil bashing comments that follow

In many of these threads we seem to mixing issues up... despising Dravidinism as professed by the politicians in TN makes perfect sense... dravidinism being one of the banes of our country just like every other 'isms'..e.g communism, secularim etc..

that issue is VERY DIFFERENT to topics about origin of tamil, the culture of the people in that state..

it has become very fashionable to abuse Dravidian leader(which i am big supporter of) and extend that feeling to other more important and significant issues that involve the history of one of the oldest language of the subcontinent (Tamil) which has mothered along with Sanskrit many of the languages spoken in south.

and ppl make it sound as if the aryan - dravidian crap that is spewed in the country somehow is a handiwork of the Dravidian movement.. it is more a reaction by the ppl frm the south to the ppl from the north, their inherent 'superiority complex' and their inability to see anything in India outside the parameters of Hindi.

I do not see any historical evidence to prove Sanskrit mothered Tamil (as many ppl's comments seem to imply.. I am happy to be proven wrong), on the contrary history strongly sugests, they existed simultaneously and independently and influenced each other..

So my only request is to put the justifiable anger against Dravidinism in proper context..this just 50 - 60 years old.. The culture of the people living there predates that by a few thousand years.. so why mix up issues..

Generally in many of these forums saying anything in favor of Tamil, the people of Tamil Nadu always generates a huge amount of hate filled IGNORANT vitriol..(and am so used to it by now). Somehow being positive towards Tamil seems to imply being anti Sanskrit, which i do not subscribe to.

But i cant stand ppl smearing them without any facts other than the streotypes we are fed in text books and hindi movies..

and btw GHost writer... Rajinikanth and Kamal hassan are not 'intellectuals' by any stretch of imagaination..That kind of comment(along with a few of u r other ones) aptly reflects a typical Indian's (poor)understanding of that state(TN) and its ppl.At the same time , India's economic growth wil force ppl to learn(the awakening as Ghost Writer said) more about the great history of our Bharath and clean the cob webs that fill our minds.

We Indians need to go a long way before we can claim to understand our brilliant, ancient and hoary culture....

Btw Rajeev, as much as u have reasons to blame the MP's from TN for many things (like the Vizhinjidam port the MP's from Kerala also have a equaly fair amount of blame to share for not pushing any projects in their state. MP's from a state lobbying for projects in their state is not new in Indian democracy..

Harish said...

Btw.. Rajeev..why this totallly one sided and slanted version of the Mullaiperiyar issue..Why use totally unrelated issues to indulge in Dravidian bashing.. There are so many realy genuine examples of their (Dravidian leadership's) high handed s and irresponsible behavior

The Mullai periyar issue is certainly not as uncomplicated as you have made it out to be..

There is Supreme court judgment to support TN's stand and lives of thousands of nominal farmers in TN whose livelihood is at stake here ..

The behavior of Kerala govt has been highly irresponsible to put it mildly..So now is that because of their communist imperial mindset by u r same logic.....

Ghost Writer said...

@ Harish
Since I know neither Tamil nor Sanskrit - I cannot, in all humility, verify your assertion of Tamil's existence outside Sanskrit - but I will accept it at face value. I will also take back Rajnikanth as an intellectual (always thought Kamal Hassan was - well he presents himself as one anyways - guess I am wrong!)

You would note that mine was not a language invective at all (read everyone must have pride in their language and the reference to the great Subramanian Bharti at the end - a true Tamil icon that man) I can also assure you it is not an invective against the 'damn madraasi' from a 'damn Northerner'- however, I stand by the assertion about the DMK nuts setting up a committee to purge Sanskritic words from Tamil. It was in the papers and I remember reading about it in V.S Naipaul's book too.

I also stand by the assertion that they are the first instance of organised goondaism in Indian politics.

I also disagree with you on the methods adopted by Periyar to get his point across - idol-smashing, the violent abrogation - it was a certain kind of nihilism. How can you support someone that hurls abuses at Gandhiji of being an upper caste oppressor? However, if I say this in Chennai - I am certain to by lynched. So much for the democratisation and rationality that the Dravidian leader you respect brought to his land.

May I request you to separate the idea of 'Periyarism' from Tamil culture, which I respect as a high culture - a fully developed civilizational force. This was the force that led to the creation of Angkor Wat and Borobudur. Tamils can and must do better than the Periyar-driven Dravidianism they often sadly cling onto.

Harish said...

Hi Ghost Writer...
Totally agree with you on many points u raised in u r response...

I have lived in Chennai for a significant part of my younger days and i hate the dravidian parties from the bottom of my heart.. they are number 1 hypocrites on this planet.. who claim to be 'atheists'and 'rationalists' when they are anything but that having perpertrated horrible crimes against the Hindu way of life..and i as a person and we(natives of that state) have suffered a lot under those buggers... The sad state of the matter that there is no viable alternative in the state..atleast at this moment..
just like communists in Bengal and Kerala

my only grouse has been (and still is) (btw this IS NOT AT ALL hurled against u as an individual) the wide spread and commonly heard invective(in media and every forum out there) where people wantonly confuse, the present style of leadership in TN with the culture of the state, its language and spew so much of hate borne out of ignorance..that was my point...
Too much of stupid stereotypes and biases pervade any discussion about the the ppl of the state, its language, the anti hindi sentiments.. etc.If we want to confront Dravidinism, it can only happen if we can distinguish it frm the other and more important facts..

as an e.g one of Rajeev's innocuous pieces on his feelings abt the "Rise of South" (or something to that effect) ...(at wordpress).. as expected instantaneously we had ppl without any rhyme or reason just abusing ppl frm TN...(i chipped in with a cople of comments trying to defend.but then it was just drowned.. )

btw the hypocricy..of removing sanskrit influences in Tamil.. is just one small example of the nonsense that these leaders have perpetrated in the name of 'Tamil language development'..

But unfortunately in India..hating Dravidinism as practised by its leaders very easily melts into hating the pooor, but proud and ancient people and the culture of that land..
which is what i oppose

also i stil insist that Tamil and Sanskrit together have fathered many lanaguages (atleast in the south)..Tamil surely was influenced by Sansrit, but i have not found any evidence to prove Tamil was a deriavate of Sanskrit, unlike every other Indian lanaguge..but i am still trying to read more on this from unbiased sources(its very hard to find)..if u know any good books on this plzz let me know.( I did read 'The Invasion that never was')

btw Kamal is a big hypocrite in himself..he is a nice actor but one must not give too much importance to what he says/does outside the 70mm screen:-)

Btw Thanks for responding man..
u have a nice blog u r self!!.much like Rajeev's!! :-)


virat0 said...

'When did the political class/political office in India fall into the hands of goons?' or 'When did muscle first take over when to comes to political machinery?'
Ghost Writer :
Following is some of my opinion on the issue :

Around 1850s, the seeds were planted for the dravidian politics. Missionaries were trying to separate people for conversion, and they had these race analysis quite vogue in europe. Some of them mentioned some tamils to be non-arayns and distant from brahmins. The idea was to say the coloniazers are different than the british . Arya had a different conotation of being civilized, so initially there were protests by tamils. But brits persisted , here persistence of wrong people brings wrong people to power. there was a guy by name Caldwell, a missionary contributed a lot to this aryan dravidian stuff. Apparently this guys is respected. Since then people have been opposing it, giving different cultural dravidian explanations, finding middle ground... on the otherside these racial ideas ( often disguised as tamil cultural) have been used by morons to create confusion. It might have taken strong stand after some british acts in early 20th century. Lately the secularists gave it a boost.

One agrees with harish that, this is not about people, state nor culture. the dravida word is pretty old, though politicians have made it synonomus with the dravidian politics.

Harish : I don't know enough of tamil to give any opinion on the language issue. But Max Mueller's method of analysis is terrible itself - its purpose is to show differences. Other than that, its utility is big zero. I mentioned this particular method, because a lot of people use such methods even today. so a lot of effort may be needed to understand language itself.

siva said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
siva said...


I can’t believe you took the commie bait. This Mullaiperiyar dam issue has unnecessarily been turned into a controversy when there is a clear Supreme Court judgment out there. I am from Tamil Nadu but I don’t see myself on the side of “Dravidian” parties on most of the issues but on this one they are right, at least they have the Supreme Court judgment on their side. The culprit this time is the commie government of Kerala.

Ghost Writer,

I always enjoy your insights. I fully agree with you that “Dravidian” parties in TN are primarily thugs. But so are Delhi’s CONgress party that slaughtered Sikhs, UP’s Mullah Mulayam who shot down Sadhus and the number one terrorists in India – Waste Bengal commies. So the “Dravidian” party is just one among many.

But on the issue of Sanskrit and Tamil, I have to disagree. I have to confess first, I am not an expert on this subject but a widely held view is that Sanskrit and Tamil are of separate origin. And there is a centuries old Tamil adage to prove it. Let me first say it in Tamil and then I will translate it.

“Sivanin kudupaiyil irundhu vandha sathathil oru puram irundu vandadu tamil maru puram irundu vandadu samaskritam” which means “Sounds that emanated from Lord Siva’s drum one side emanated Tamil and the other side emanated Sanskrit.” I believe this ancient adage more that any “research” conducted by any “linguists.” Based on this ancient adage Tamil is as ancient as Sanskrit and they both are truly classical languages.

A few words can indeed be found in both languages and it is impossible to say which influenced what. You are right, “cleansing” Tamil from Sanskrit is lunacy. What if it is Tamil that influenced Sanskrit? Then that would be embarrassing, isn’t it.

Also remember there are many Tamilians who don’t agree with the “Dravidian” parties and are as nationalist as anybody else. According to Indian Express (I don’t have the exact date of publication) it was Tamil Nadu that gave most to the Kargil relief fund than any other state. More than the BJP ruled saffron Gujarat and rich Maharashtra! TN has elected a malayalee, MGR, as it CM for three consecutive terms. He was the longest serving CM of any state in India before J Basu eclipsed him. Almost 30% of TN’s population comprises of Telugu’s and a substantial number consists of Kannadigas and Malayalees. Large cities have a good number of North Indians as well and we all live harmoniously together. So please don’t paint all Tamilians with the bigoted Dravidian brush.

virat0 said...

A few words can indeed be found in both languages and it is impossible to say which influenced what. You are right, “cleansing” Tamil from Sanskrit is lunacy. What if it is Tamil that influenced Sanskrit? Then that would be embarrassing, isn’t it.
When the focus is to find the secondary ego, or impose it, then it would be embrassing. When it is to surrender the primordial one, then that remains the focus Sivanin kudupaiyil irundhu vandha sathathil oru puram irundu vandadu tamil maru puram irundu vandadu samaskritam - Thanks for posting the nice verse. COuld this mean that, the two are sublimal ? Could this mean that both are better organized ?

It is worth this approach that, many had opposed the divisive politics almost centuries before, when the politics was formulated. This may not as random as it sounds to us, the rules submerge in the primordial, so all the rules come from there. There is the synergy. People have said it, though I don;t understand it beyond elementary stuff.

Some of the mainstream secular sources, for example on agastya are third rate analysis.

virat0 said...

BTW can you give a word to word meaning of the following :
Sivanin kudupaiyil irundhu vandha sathathil oru puram irundu vandadu tamil maru puram irundu vandadu samaskritam

siva said...


I don’t have answers for your questions because I am not an expert on this subject but I can give you the literal word-by-word translation. Here we go.

Sivanin – Lord Siva’s
Kudupaiyil or Kudupai – Drum
Irundhu – from
Vandha – came out
sathathil – Sounds
oru puram – one side
Irundhu – from
Vandha – came out
Tamil –Tamil
maru puram – other side
Irundhu – from
Vandadu or Vandha – came out
Samaskritam - Sanskrit

Harish said...

Yes Virat as u said... the obnoxious influence of Cadwell on the genesis of Dravidian movement is totally true..

hmm..well i am not any expert in linguistics least of all origin of ancient languages like Tamil and Sanksrit..

But in many of the case i tend to see some truth in the many legends that have been handed down thru ages..
The legend has it that the original 'source' of Tamil was Sage Agasthya himself, and the sounds of the language came from the drums of Lord Shiva.

Let me take the liberty of translating the verse that Siva sent (its in brackets)

"Sivanin-(From Shiva's)

kudupaiyil -(drums/dhol)

irundhu vandha sathathil- (the sounds)

oru puram irundu vandadu tamil - (from one side of which came tamil )

maru puram irundu vandadu samaskritam "-
(the other side is the source of sanskrit)

There is also a very intresting legend of how tamil actually got created..(but thats for another post if u guys are interested!)

One of the main problems about dating origins of Tamil, is that there is no recorded history of the 1st Sangam, which is supposed to hold the key to the actual dating of the language.We might have lost those dates forever.

Also Tamil is just not another 'regional langauge' in India. It has a history that predates any other language in the sub continent excepting Sanskrit. I have found that this truth is incredibly hard for a lot of my fellow Indians to swallow..

Yes as Virat said..its time we throw shiboleths of history taught by "secular" text books and find the incredibly common threads that bind us.
We have had enof of this divide and rule.. first by British and then my secular Congress and the Dravidian parties.

We have conclusive evidence for the absence of any stupid Aryan-Dravidian race and migration stories. We are one race, one people.

We need to similiarly dig into our history to find the origin of many of these ancient more 'proto-this' and 'proto-that' to suit European versions of history.

virat0 said...

Thanks harish for the word to word meaning.

"The legend has it that the original 'source' of Tamil was Sage Agasthya himself, and the sounds of the language came from the drums of Lord Shiva." . Could it have meant that something was obtained from observation of prestine manifestation from the unmanifest. May be it has inherent in its meaning that, the counting of the sacrifice of days consumed by each pleasant evening is merely a phenomena among myriads of the phenomenas, just like sage agastya observed few. In such a case, would it be a digression to fix a mind streched to antiquity as a primary truth? What to make of the sound emanating from two faces of an instrument. Are they sounds or analysis of superposition. Which one could have more antiquity, if the drummer itself is a gust of sound that triggered it ? For the time being let the drummer isolate more on antiquity. I think Sivanin kudupaiyil ... sounds fine and lyrical to reread it a couple of times :)

indianpatriot said...

I am from Karnataka and I think Tamilians should be grateful to Vijanagara empire and Shivaji for saving their language and culture or it could have been like afghanistan (Overrun like Buddha statues and replaced everything with Persian or Arabic). Eventhough my mothertongue is Konkani, I was born and brought up mostly in Karnataka. Somehow Kannadigas have contempt for Tamilians because of their language fanatism. They get along with Telugus, Malayalees and infact many north Indians and Marathis. It was my personal observation that Tamilians who settled in Karnataka donot try to learn Kannada which is not case with other south Indians and also others like Gujarathis and Marathis. In this respect Tamilians are very similar to Hindi Speaking north Indians. Just like Tamilians purged Sanskrit words to proove superiority, Hindi pseudo seculars have purged Sanskrit words with urdu/persian words.
As Rajeev had pointed out in one of his articles modern Tamil literature is nothing to write about in terms of number of Jnanpith awards.

champiano said...

Beware of Keralites . A Treacherous tribe . Highly chauvanistic and individualistic to the core . they will scuttle the progress of persons hailing from a state other than Kerala to push the profile of another malayalee .

My HR Manager is a Malayalee and is a ' incompetent show off '. He shortlists CV's of keralites based on the antecedence evident in the names Nair . menon , chacko etc , even though they are not competent enough for the positions . These nauseating mallus have created a Mini kerala in our office . the chatter in their insipid language , conspiring against others .

I would relish the situation when
major cities such as Hyd , Chennai , Mumbai , Bangalore , Delhi , Kolkatta stop being receptive to malayalees. The malayalees will endup as refugees in their useless state of Kerala

pulsar said...

Here are the ingredients for such movements as far as I see it:

1. A bit of (controversial?) history
2. A determined/strong politician who puts that idea forward
3. A large group of people who support it
4. The socio-political climate

Any political party (any form of government) has to come to an end like it started.. changes will come in this government too I feel. But, it has to come slowly..

Everybody have their differences.. but getting together magnanimously and putting an end to the differences through compromises rather than vilifying each other is a better idea I think.

Indians can come together.. I am sure where the heck ever they are. Why not come together in India?

On another note ->
To quote a Hindu Article on Periyar's idea: [ Jinnah was, however, non-committal; as was his style. For instance, when E.V. Ramaswami `Periyar' wrote to him on August 9, 1944, joining his demand for Dravidistan to the demand for Pakistan, for a fight against "our opponents" Jinnah replied on August 17, 1944, to say "it is entirely for you people to decide on this matter [Dravidistan]... " ].