sept 10th, 2007
in writing for over a decade, i have never felt as bad about india as i do now. the barbarians are no longer at the gates: they are inside, they are sitting on the throne and waving the scepter around.
http://rajeev2007.wordpress.com/2007/09/10/independence-freedom-democracy-and-other-such-myths/
21 comments:
And the bloody Hindus are blissfully ignorant talking gibberish like secularism, all religions are same and crap like this. At this rate even god cannot save Hindus and India.
It may be easy to pass out of India's premier institutes - but from the sad "wish me too" tone of your comments it sounds like it is pretty darn difficult to get in. Would you not say?
And moving abroad on passing out of said premier institute actually reflects the failure of the state. It shows that you cannot aspire to perfectibility in India. You will always be asked to shrink by the state. And has not the success of the NRI community transformed other nations perception of India (and thereby Indians perception of themselves)? No one in India bats an eye-lid while celebrating the success of NRI's - so why sit in moral judgment of an NRI's criticism? Or is it that the Dharma of NRI's is only to succeed and never to question?
It is also pretty nice to sit in judgment of such "pass outs" while you sit and deride anything that breaks this silly secular-socialist mold that India is being cast in. In that final respect - please note at least Rajeev's grievance is with the STATE - from some of what you post Christian - you and the other fellow matthew - it seems your grievance is at Indic civilisation in toto (they have a word for this too: Christism).
It is the classic Non-resident Indian vs. Resident Non-Indian debate
Media is one area where Hindus/nationalists are losing big time. There is a glaring need of print and TV news outlets which have national and international reach and which provide Hindu side and version of the events and history. Much like FOX in US or Al Jazeera in Muslim world.
We need newspapers like Pioneer or Sudarshan TV at national level.
But sadly, it seems both suffer from lack of resources and big commercial backing.
Christian,
Why should only those living in India be able to criticize the functioning of Indian government? How do you know Rajeev did not contribute or give back at least “part of what he took from the country”?
After passing all these judgments you are accusing Rajeev of being judgmental and hypocritical? There is a word in English language for your situation too - irony :-)
Many congratulations on the great CV (which is certainly way better than mine - I will admit). As Donahue said - you are the son my parents wanted to have!!
However, the fact that you are out of India only proves Rajeev's point - only he felt the need to leave sooner than you did.
Interestingly - did you hear Manmohan Singh telling his nuclear scientists that their skills are going to be in great demand because of the deal?
Vicious hatred for Christism (which is different from Christianity - or the same depending on how you want it) is good in and of itself. Christism is of course - Adharmic - and so opposing it is obligatory duty of all Hindus. It is a bounden duty to oppose a creed that says you can only 'come' to God (with the capital G) through Jesus. It is against everything that Hinduism stands for. Hence opposing it is a meritorious task - the work is it's own reward etc.
Not only do I protect your right to say anything you want about Hinduism - I invite you to do so. Only you cannot because there is no scriptural sanction to such errant non-sense amongst Hindus (of course practice falls short of the ideal, but at least the ideal is not flawed). Also note that every sundry Christist (and his uncle) have in the past said very nasty things about Hindus. How come we do not hear a squeak out of your mouth on those stalwarts. But come the time to shame Hindus into silence - and behold - you are in the line.
Christism bashing has a utalitarian benefit as well - which is to unite the Hindus , even if it is against the other.
You only have to go through the who's who of business in Indian business to be proved wrong
But you only have to go through the who's who of NRI successes for me to be proved right. And are there not real cases where facilities (labs, resources etc.) for conducting research are only available in the West?
Christist,
I have not seen a single statement of hate against Christism from Rajeev. He has been fairly objective in his description of Christism and states facts in a calm manner. You are unnecessarily getting emotional. You should argue the issues on the merits of the points Rajeev raises.
If your question is why many people oppose Christists, I can answer that. Because Christists have hatred for everyone else and commit genocides. If even one Christist priest moves to a peaceful locality, he creates social strife within a few months. If you don't believe me, name one non-Christist group with which Christists are at peace. The answer is that there is no such group.
Christian said>> this puts me in the league of people who know a bit about him
How can you conclude that Rajeev did not do anything or give back “part of what he took from the country” just by reading his post. It doesn’t even make any sense. Normally IIT guys make tons of money in US and my bet is Rajeev would have invested quite a bit of that in India and that my friend is a valuable investment or giving back “part of what he took from the country” as you put it. Don’t you think?
Christian said>>> wonder why most Hindus themselves are afraid of right wing Hindus.
Come on buddy, don’t give me this crap. Did you take any polls, I mean scientific opinion polls to arrive at this conclusion?
And you wonder where the hatred for Christianity comes from? Its called Law of Karma – what you sow is what you reap. When bible and Christians sow hatred and bigotry what do expect will happen?
@Christist,
>>"......I passed out of the same institution, ......."
My congratulations to you. Wonder if this elite institution managed to inculcate some scientific temper and rationalism in your brain. For once, I'd like an honest answer to the following:
1. Do you or do you not believe in the biblical fairy tale about the Earth being created in 7 days?
2. Do you or do you not believe in the christist view of the earth being flat?
3. Do you or do you not believe in
the alleged "Virgin" birth of your yesu?
4. Do you or do you not believe in
Yesu as the exclusive passport to "heaven"?
5. Do you or do you not believe
that Hindus are heathens who are condemned to fire and damnation in hell if they do not accept yesu?
6. Do you or do you not believe
that the nasty genocidal maniac xavier is a "saint" ?
7. Do you or do you not support the pornographic depiction of Hindu religious icons by Christian missionaries?
8. Do you or do you not champion the cause of anti-national elements like Afzal Guru?
9. Do you or do you not contribute to the denigration & demonization of Hindus by Christist missionaries?
>>".....I have never writen such things about Hinduism......"
Nobody is conned by your phoney arguments.
Actually, you have attacked Hinduism, Hindu legends and Gurus on different threads only a few weeks ago.
Besides, your depiction of a terrorist like Graham Staines as a great martyr in itself constitutes a hateful and bigoted action.
None of us have an unreasonable hatred of all people & all things Christian, just because they happen to be christian.
However, we do hate "christism" which is an violent, genocidal cult that threatens to annihilate Indic civilization.
The onus is really on you,
"christian" to disown "christism", denounce scoundrels like xavier, the chicanery of teresa, genocides perpetrated by christists in India
and declare a moratorium on all evangelical activity.
If you do not do this, you are contributing to the blurring of any alleged distinction between
"christianity" and "christism".
Therefore, why blame anyone for
the belief that they are one and the same.
And, what gives you christians the right to demand a debate about Hinduism? You simply have no locus standi on this. It is incumbent upon you as an intelligent human being to first and foremost introspect about the intolerance inherent in christianity and the crimes against humanity, conceived, sanctioned and perpetrated by it.
Refusal to critically evaluate christianity's "gifts" to humankind
would be further proof of your christist indoctrination, that an IIT "education" has failed to eradicate.
Will you simply hate your neighbour who is a decent person, just for the reason he's Christian?
For answers to this and other such assorted questions - please refer my earlier distinction (if you can see them as being distinct) between Christianity and Christism. I grant it the way some folks in the Church go about their business that this is a distinction without a difference. However, these are distinct things (similar amongst the Mohammedans - Islamic vs. Islamicate)
I repeat once again - any creed based on Prophetic Monotheism - i.e. rubbish such as God's only begotten son, only begotten messiah, holy spirit etc. are Adharmic.
And no - I do not hate a neighbor born into a Christian family. However, I do criticize a belief systems that perpetuates falsehoods.
I take your point about spending time in the West for experience. Anyone here in pursuit of wealth is not ignoble either. And yes - they can pontificate about how bad things are back home without being judged.
I also salute your service to India - which I am prepared to concede is of a tall order indeed. Being critical of your Christist belief system and full of gushing admiration for you are not mutually exclusive. Similarly with Rajeev - I have rarely heard him rile against "common Christians" - very often against the Churchians (rightly so) - but not so much against "common Christians"
@Rajeev,
Read your article on rediff, loved it!
@Commenters
I wonder why a post about India degenerated into an argument over religion. But since it has I am going to add my opinion for what its worth:
Religion is a deeply personal issue and every person has a right to his own "passport" to heaven or even the right to believe in heaven.
Judging people for their religious beliefs is immature and I wonder why people care what someone else believes in.
That said, I abhor the Christian and Islamic belief that gives you brownie points for proselytizing. Hinduism is far more about live and let live than either of the above and that is why I respect the Hindu belief system the most.
@Christian
I am sorry you have been subject to some harsh questions about your belief system. I wonder how people use words like "true" and "false" which are highly relative, context sensitive and based on the limitations of our perception!
".....Religion is a deeply personal issue and every person has a right to his own "passport" to heaven or even the right to believe in heaven.
.........nd I wonder why people care what someone else believes in........"
Exactly my point. The question should be directed to those christists who keep targeting Hindus for conversion by any means, including denigration of their beliefs. It would be appropriate to ask of those who believe they have a divine right to question the Hindu belief system.
The thread degenerated into an argument on religion because "christist" falsely claimed that he had never slandered Hinduism etc when Rajeev's article pertained to how the Indian state had failed to deliver on several counts.
Therefore, I'm not sorry that christist has been subject to questions. It is Christism that
divides the world into "Believers"
and "Sinners", the latter damned to hell.
It is one thing to believe something privately. And, it is something quite different when those private beliefs enter the public domain and begin impinging on, interfering in other people's lives. Christianity's violent record is there for all to see across the globe; it is better than Islam only in relative terms.
Therefore, an exclusive, intolerant cult like it is very deserving of critical examination.
Such an examination is imperative for India's survival as a free nation, when it is being subverted by an evangelical conspiracy.
A policy of "live and let live" with a predatory dogma is a recipe for self destruction.
Rajeev's article pertained to the emasculation of the Indian state apparatus. This is caused by many factors: christian proselytisation,
manipulation of the educational system, distortion of history,
and perversion of the socio-
political discourse by anti-Hindu forces has been successful to such
an extent that even "educated" Hindus are conned into believing
christo-secular propaganda and
eccepting phoney secularism, which is just a diluted form of christianity.
The mischievous sowing of doubt and discord in the Hindu consciousness by overt christists
and their stealth christist comrades is a significant cause for the retreat of the Indian state.
Hence, the need for a ruthless
examination of christianity and it's record in India.
Sorry to butt into the argument but who is this “christian” referred to. I don’t see any posts by this person. And who is Ghost Writer referring to or rebutting in his first post in this discussion?
@ramesh
You don't see the "christian" guy because he is the Holy Ghost, about whom Ghost Writer writes about. Hope your confusion is cleared.
And I suppose Mathew is St Matthew the apostle.
but seriously..how do 'Chrisitans' post dissapear magically... i dont see any trace of deletions...This is not the first time...
I am sorry if its too obvious to others around here..
can someone plzz explain..
@Harish,
>> ".....but seriously..how do 'Chrisitans' post dissapear magically....." <<
Don't you get it? It's a christian miracle! Despite all his alleged "Education", just scratch
christist a little and out comes the true missionary in him with all the vile abuse.
And, note his inconsistent stand.
On the one hand, he keeps singing
carols about the remittances that
kerala christists send from the gulf and elsewhere; On the other, he insists that those not physically present on Indian soil
have no right to comment on anything rotten happening there.
By the same token, only Hindus have the right to talk about Hinduism, no?
This is a typical christist strategem. Anything and everything evil within christianity is presented as "beneficial to mankind" and necessary for it's salvation. Conversely, other religions can do no good; it follows that they are heathens.
Christians alone have the divine right to criticize, deride, dehumanize and convert all others.
No one else has the right to respond. If they do so, they are
"fascists","fundamentalists" etc.
I once asked a proselytizer why christians do this, i.e why interfere in the lives of decent, law abiding, non violent people.
And he said something to the effect that: "If you see a house on fire, wouldn't it be your duty to save those who would be burnt alive", i.e. christians consider
Hinduism (and other non-christian faiths I might add) as paths to hellfire and consider it their duty to "save the heathens" those "damned to hell".
How would modern psycho-analytics classify such a state of mind?
looks like after being treated like a mad dog he is, christian went to his paedophile padres and has come back (recharged due to obvious reasons) like a hot air balloon, trying to save his guilty face by accusing others, while we all know what kind of a weak, schizophrenic guy he/she is
christian go back to your padre and be useful
>>"where is the "vile abuse" you are talking about? <<
Most of it has been deleted. You used words like "vomit, crap, urine,cheapo" etc when you were cornered. You may not have noticed it, but this is not a pornographic forum, so you should
refrain from such language. But, being very well acquainted with the bigoted worldview of kerala chrisists in particular, I'm not surprised one bit.
To me, Hindus, Christians & Muslims are *not* the same because
the only good christians/muslims are those who do not practise their religion seriously. If they did, my life would be in danger.
>>" never sang praises about the remittances 'Kerala Christists' sent, rather about what
'Keralites' sent. ....."
Ok, I take you at face value. Then, by your own logic, as an NRI - you are not qualified, to criticize India and the Hindus.
And being a christian, what gives you the right to question & disparage Hinduism?
On another thread, you had disparaged characters in the Mahabharata.
But, christian history is full of
sexual deviants who committed fornication, incest, paedophilia - unheard of *anywhere*, *anytime* in the annals of the Indic civilization.
Indians had never even heard of orgies until the "advent" of the christists.
There is no corresponding Indian example for the Roman emperor
Tiberius who used to watch young boys being sodomised for entertainment; and have them thrown off steep cliffs to a violent death on sharp rocks, when he was bored of it.
Or, his successor, Caligula - who, incidentally was one of his father, Tiberius's victims.
Caligula committed incest with his own sisters, impregnated them; then had them disemboweled.
These are just 2 examples of christian/western civilization on the basis of which you claim superiority. No wonder, christists are obsessed with "Sin". Christian heritage is full of the most despicable sins ever conceived by man.
Only a brainwashed fanatic would believe your tale of Hindu "proselytisation" anywhere.
Hinduism is native to Malaysia & Indonesia. There are references in Hindu scriptures of princesses from Korea marrying into the Ikshvaku dynasty and references in the Mahabharata to royals from south east asia who came to fight in the Kurukshetra war.
Because you cannot honestly deny the fact that Christianity is a proselytising, imperialistic cult;
you are attempting to equate Hinduism with it and tar it with the same brush. This kind of extrapolation is typical of christist propaganda. It may find takers among dhimmis like Sudheendra Kulkarni, but not here and most definitely, not me.
BTW, christist evangelism, having succeeded in Kerala, Tamil Nadu & the North East is rearing it's ugly head all over India since John Paul came to India in 2000.
Christists have been particularly emboldened since 2004 when the shroud of Turin acquired power and have appointed assorted provincial goondas to manage their conversion agenda. Samuel Reddy of AP is the biggest, filthiest goonda of them all. Regarding "the Stain", what can I say? There needs to be a national debate on conversions.
Indeed, such a debate is taking place in northern India.
Rest assured, there will be such a debate in Andhra & Karnataka.
Thy kingdom come.
lol christian, you dont think of dignity when your padre doesnt want to, isn't it?
i have plenty of chinese flags with me, to wrap you and deliver your squirming self to your eager padre, he will like you in red, and i will give him a copy of Karl marx too, to bang on you head if you play hard-to-get
so dont waste ur time priniting @ here, padre will banish you from ur church, and all ur orgies will be over, much to ur sadness, who loves playing the victim -:)
Perhaps KapiDhwaja or karyakarta92 will enlighten us as to what it is in Christianity (such a useless, shallow, depressing cult), which is making so many Hindus leave the religion which their ancestors have been following for millennia. Surely it cant be all bcoz of monetary lure or even coercion. I suppose u’ll say it’s the power of the Holy Ghost (Holy Shit), which can obviously do a lot more than just making posts disappear magically from Rajeev’s blog.
Hindus convert primarirly because of the ignorance of the greatness of the religion they are born in, because of the embarrassment about their civilization, and total lack of initiation into anything related to Hinduism through their whole lives. The missionaries, on the other hand, are a trained propoganda machine since centuries. To the converts, maybe to many others too, the grass appears greener on the other side. So instead of being first class inheritors of their forefathers' religion, they become the third class adjuncts of a foreign relgion.
Unfortunately this self -defeating complex of the Indians is not limited to just their religion. It is manifest in areas as diverse as sports, war , politics,the value they attach to fellow Indians lives, and an absence of vision or purpose that is displayed by the country as a whole.
It is against these hopeless, self defeating behavior of Indians that we need to fight against, and I understand that partly, this is what this blog is about.
Of course we need to create an environment where people get to understand that every answer to their question lies in their religion and they dont need to go to these outlandish belief-systems for support.
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