here's an earlier mail someone forwarded me from herr witzel, who is crowing -- a little prematurely, perhaps. counting der chickens before zey are hatched?
i am so tempted to use all those comic-book words to demean him: schweinhund! achtung! alas, my german fails me: i only remember one sentence from my one-semester technical german at iit madras. "die chemische industrie produziert synthetische stoffe". actually i remember one more: "gold und silber sind elemente". i guess i actually know more yiddish than i do german: schmuck, schlemiel, shtik, schmooze, etc.
but it's unfair to laugh at german for witzel being an ass. incidentally, vikram seth in his kqed forum interview said that he was so upset by nazi documents -- he speaks fluent german -- that he developed a visceral, if unreasoning, hatred for the language.
maybe witzel, poor fellow, was dropped on his head as a child. that might explain his hatred for hindus. especially considering that he's supposed to be an expert on sanskrit. sort of kalidasa-ish, in kalidasa's pre-enlightenment self : he was known for sawing off the branch he sat on. a rather dangerous occuption, of course.
anyway, here's the rogues' gallery. i am surprised to see kenoyer's name in there. note in particular the indians. parpola is the leading 'dravidianist' around, and goldman, once upon a time rather a decent person, has turned coat as well, it appears.
oh, and witzel now has plans to attack the bbc website that i remarked on some time ago -- it has actually said that the AIT is bunkum. expect the bbc to jump eagerly into witzel's hot little embrace: they're just waiting to do their usual india and hindu-bashing.
================= witzel mail ================================
Fra: Michael Witzel [mailto:witzel@fas.harvard.edu]
Sendt: 26. november 2005 17:26
Til: Peter Zoller; Garrett G. Fagan; Alexander Vovin; Patrick Olivelle; Boris Oguibenine; Phyllis K Herman; carendreyer Dreyer; Frederick Smith; Lars Martin Fosse; Rajesh Kochhar; Richard Meadow; Stanley Wolpert; Dwijendra Jha; Georg von Simson; Madhav Deshpande; Frank Southworth; Hiroshi Marui; Sudha Shenoy; Asko Parpola; Mohammad Mughal; Don Ringe; S. Palaniappan; Wim van Binsbergen; Homi Bhabha; huang9; David Stampe; Hideaki Nakatani; Jonathan Mark Kenoyer; Stefan Zimmer; Romila Thapar; Muneo Tokunaga; Shereen Ratnagar; Michael Witzel; Sheldon Pollock; Dominik Wujastyk; Parimal G. Patil; Steve Farmer; Robert Goldman; falk Falk; jkirk Kirkpatrick; agnes korn; Scharfe; Kalpana Desai; maurizio.tosi@tiscali.it ; Patricia Donegan; Shingo Einoo
Kopi: Arlo Griffiths; Raka Ray; Leonard van der Kuijp; Michael Witzel; John Brockington
Emne: Next step: California Comm. vote on Hindutva changes
Dear friends,
success! It seems that we were successful; more details will follow as soon they become available. Here the initial, partial report from people present at the meeting of the California State Board of Education:
This afternoon the California Board of Education voted to approve the school books for adoption in California schools;
seven of eight publishers' programs were approved (Including the initially rejected Oxford U.P. one, it seems without adding in any of the Hindutva material).
seven of eight publishers' programs were approved (Including the initially rejected Oxford U.P. one, it seems without adding in any of the Hindutva material).
Below, I attach our joint letter for your reference. We had planned to send it to you earlier, but all the back and forth yesterday in preparing for today's (Wednesday's) meeting prevented me.
Luckily, we had a California historian of india, Prof. J. Heitzman (UC Davis), present at the meeting who also used a letter written by Prof. Wolpert.
Hence, some more detailed news about the meeting of the California State Board of Education:
The meeting was to decide whether to adopt the changes that have already been suggested, collected in a book containing the massive number of changes.
Comments from the audience: each one to speak for TWO MINUTES each.
The first cohort of speakers included representatives of the Vedic Foundation, who all urged adoption of the changes.
The next major group consisted of a number of Sikh speakers who urged non-adoption of the changes until after the insertion of additional material on Sikhism.
Prof. Heitzman, speaking for us all, then alluded to the "Standards for Evaluating Instructional Materials for Social Content," section:" Religion; Indoctrination", urging the Board not to "encourage or discourage belief or indoctrinate the student in any particular religious belief."
Pointing out that we represent thousands of high-level scholars from all religious backgrounds dedicated to the academic study of South Asian history and culture, he stated that we have two main objections to the current draft that cause us to oppose its adoption:
(1) the consulting base, i.e. Dr. Bajpai, is too narrow for a problem of this complexity; and (2) we "impugn the credentials" of the Vedic Foundation and other Hindu groups to speak competently on issues of South Asian history and religion.
These groups project, either overtly or subconsciously, policies known as Hindutva or "Hinduness" that portray South Asian and specifically Indian identity as Hindu. Their program has ravaged the social studies textbooks of India for the last ten years.
He urged the Board not to allow a religious chauvinism of India to become the policy of the State of California, which would provoke an academic and international uproar. He volunteered the services of the university community specializing in the analysis of South Asia for evaluating the edits and additions proposed for the California textbooks: "We are ready to earn our pay; let us help you."
Sincere thanks to Prof. Heitzman and to all of you ! This shows how concerted action, even if it comes as late as ours, can be successful.
Incidentally, the next thing to tackle is the BBC website. Let us discuss how to go about it. Please see this:
Best wishes,
Michael
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University
1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138
1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571
direct line: 496 2990
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
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12 comments:
Off Topic: Intel to invest $1B in India.
Repent ye sinners! For the future has definitely arrived!
link
Well, likewise Witzel could be masking an Atlanticist agenda, by attempting to caricature the "phoren" people as the agenda-hawkers. I believe in the Aryan Invasion theory, although I might describe it as Aryan Migration and not necessarily invasion. I don't mind phrases like "men had many more rights than women" -- but only if every religion has these descriptions in it, and not the singling out of one particular religion. I feel that all ancient societies featured men having more rights than women, and it's wrong to single out India for that particular commentary.
Another idea I believe in which relates to Aryan 'invasion' is that most Aryan-concentrated areas converted to Islam, post-invasion. The key difference between the Vedic Aryans and the Islam-converted Aryans, is that the Vedic Aryans are nativists while the Islamic Aryans are extra-territorialists.
Witzel & Co. want to destroy evidence that they took a racist position. For this purpose they are asking BBC to destroy evidence. Please post this point everywhere.
The Hindu organizations should look ahead and plan for long term. Not much can be done about people like Romila Thapar (Who reportedly doesn't even know Sanskrit), however, surely the US universities will be hiring young people and giving tenure track positions to some in all areas. Hindu organizations should make sure pseudo-intellectuals, leftists, and India bashers don't get into academics in the first place.
Thirty years back, Indians had little money, limited reach, and faced adverse political climate. Things have changed today.
To begin with, isolate one so-called expert from the leftist intellectual and India-basher group. Pick holes in his papers. Just target him/her. Look for someone who is seeking tenure track in near future in these areas. Grab him/her. Carry out a multi-pronged attack. Hit them where it hurts most. Stop the comforts of these pseudo intellectuals and see the results. They will melt in no time....
San.!! you believe in the aryan invasion theory.. I believe, by Toutatis, that the sky will someday fall on our heads. Well, lets just disagree. I have many more reasons to not believe in the aryan invasion theory, than to believe in it. And even if there was an Aryan invasion or migration, or whatever you call it, why would the so called Aryan brahmins and kshatrias convert to islam. it was the so-called lower castes who converted. Isnt there a contradiction. Well, lets just say that Aryan invasion theory continues to contradict itself, and the historians like the cheap BA holder from NoName university of UK like romila thappar keep adding to it to iron out the contradictions. Of course, all Indians are not equal. If they were, how can marxists earn their bread.!!!
i said
>>>> why would the so called Aryan brahmins and kshatrias convert to islam. it was the so-called lower castes who converted.
========
Werent aryans *suppposed* to be the upper castes!! So if you say aryans converted to islam, then we wouldnt be having so called upper castes today at all... so much the better
"I believe, by Toutatis, that the sky will someday fall on our heads."
DarkStorm, that was a good one!
DarkStorm, Pls dont remind us of the good old Asterix days, by invoking Toutatis!
san says,
The key difference between the Vedic Aryans and the Islam-converted Aryans, is that the Vedic Aryans are nativists while the Islamic Aryans are extra-territorialists.
I think what san is trying to say is 'Aryans' are atlanticists. right, san? or are they technologists?
Come on Junta,
Isn't it gullible of us to discuss theories of someone who believe that earth was created in 4004 BC
Regards
no migrations are possible after 3500 BC . Tell every one this:
20 Reasons:
(Tell the whole world this)
(a) Hinduism almost disappeared in 600 BC after the advent of Buddhism. Did Hinduism exist only for 400 years before disappearing ? This is outright absurd ! (plus Hinduism was already In decline by 1000 BC – how could it begin to decline before it even developed ?
(b) Sanskrit too meets with a similar fate if we take a date of 1500 BC : according to Indian tradition Sanskrit disappeared long before 1000 BC: This is simply irreconciliable
(c) There are hundreds of Pre-buddhist kinglists waiting to be dated (stories of these kings still form a part of daily culture): how can we make one part of our history disappear?
(d) How can such a theory reconcile with the timeline of the drying up of the River Saraswathi? How does it explain references in the Rig Veda to the vastness of the River Saraswathi?
(e) In the recent past, the History of the Aryan kingdoms of the Gangetic plains has been painstakingly reconstructed all the way to before 1900 BC. How can such a theory reconcile with this?
(f) How does it reconcile with the fact that Kings Sudyumma, Turvasa, Drhuya established three independent cities on the banks of the river Saraswathi accoriding to Sanskrit literature? There are several cities mentioned in Sansktit literature-many remain undiscovered
(g) How could Aryans have destroyed ten million Harappans overnight? The Harappan civilization is now simply too big for us to even consider such a simplistic model. If this is so, how do we assume that Indo-Aryans had arrived at the same time that the Harappan civilization declined?
(h) Why would anyone compose 10000 verses of Hymns overnight? The Rig Veda was an oral record of people, their culture, their triumphs and tribulations over the centuries. It perhaps did not become a rigid tradition till 1500 BC
(i) Why did the Aryans have to compose the Vedas the moment they landed in India ? The date for the Rig Veda doesn’t rule out the Aryans having existed in India earlier (Why did nomads develop philosophical instincts overnight?)
(j) How does the Aryan Invasion theory explain certain similarities between Vedic and Harappan cultures especially in the newer excavations? This means that they had interected with each other over a period of time
(k) How does AIT explain the Aryan political process as described in Sanskrit literature?
(l) The Rig Veda describes the Geography of India in very great detail and at best mentions an ancient homeland in passing. How does the Aryan Invasion Theory explain this?
(m) There is no record of Sanskrit existing in the same form anywhere outside India. Therefore Sanskrit may have evolved in India (though perhaps from an earlier common source).How can the AIT explain this? Sanskrit and Persian languages were related to one another but not similar
(n) How could the “battle” of 1500 BC be fought using chariots? How did chariots evolve from a nomadic culture overnight? Therefore, this must have been a conflict within the Indian subcontinent and not an alien invasion.
(o) How can the Boghaz Kuei inscription be explained? Also references to Indian kings in Persia in 1800 BC? Indian names could be differentiated from Persian names by 1800 BC. By 1800 BC, Aryans had already begun to rule from India.
(p) How does it explain the references to the river Saraswathi in the epic Mahabharata i.e 1500 BC? How could the “Aryan” epic age replete with kingdoms and chariots have begun before the Vedic age?
(q) How does this theory explain the fact that Non-Aryan kingdoms i.e Gandhara, Chedi, Khamboja were already existing at the time of the Rig Veda?
(r) The general pattern of Vedic influences in Harappan culture suggests that Vedic speakers had trickled in from the North-east and not the North-west as previously assumed. How can this be explained?
(s) How can it explain the fact that The Bet Dwarka site contains many Harappan elements and at the same time could be associated by many historians with a Sanskrit epic? This site has already been dated to 1800 BC – 1900 BC
(t) DNA tests have confirmed a cosmopolitan set of people already existing by 2200 BC in India.
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