OT, Indian policy makers finally developing a spine? http://www.saag.org/BB/view.asp?msgID=28748 Excellent policy of playing the Taiwan card will get Red China's goat. Also, we can sign a "peaceful nuclear cooperation" pact with Taiwan and slip them a few Brahmos missiles on the side
Thanks for posting the article, Hokiepride. It was a good read. Hope India officially adopts the Two-China policy and recognizes Taiwan soon. Taiwan could prove to be the 'Vibhishana' in our confrontation with the Chinese 'Ravana' in the future.
because they can decimate us and send us back to stone age. They have ICBMs to give hiroshima treatment to all our major cities.
Few months back I was flamed here for saying that and a poster called habc claimed that India beat the shit out of them in some imaginary war in 1986. At that time I had nothing to dispute that even though I was sceptical of that 'victory'. Sure enuf, few weeks later I saw a news item in rediff in which one army person claimed that china grabbed land in 1986 while our govt and army did nothing.
personally I hate china and I hope some natural calamity takes care of them or their internal fighting. Conditions are ripe for social unrest in china. Unforutanaly we can't rely on hope alone.
i really dont think its the ability of China to bomb us to stone age that we need to fear (we can for sure pay back in kind)..Its got to do with how China has an unhindred ability to create trouble inside India and India's immediate neighborhood. The strangelhold that China has over India's decision making through media and their communist cronies is scary. They are hard nosed imperialists who give a damn about the rest of the world as compared to pussy footing India. Look at the way we lack the gumption to handle Taiwan or Tibet to achieve strategic depth in our interactions with China.
I am not sure if u guys followed the news about India agreeing to not working on ICBM as a quid-pro-quid for the nuclear treaty with US. This is the kind of mentality prevalent in India that we need to fear.
"I really dont think its the ability of China to bomb us to stone age that"
I wish what you said is true. Alas, china has the wherewithal to do so, not to mention, their imperialistic ideology. This is one country which gives a flying fuck to uncle Sam, why would they think about India any more than we think of mosquitos.
You know what is the attitude in south block re: china. They never even assume that we can put up a fight with them.
Notice that India is making china as our most preferred trading partner with the hope that once trade grows between us, China will not like to lose trade with us by going to war.
@TambiDude I do not believe.. Trade in anyway prevents 2 nations from going to war..That premise is bereft of any logic or historical evidence..
India I believe has both the soft and hard power to take care of China.. but that can only happen when we Indians realise our intrinsic power...that comes from removing Nehruvians and commies from centers of power..
If we cower at US and fawn at China after taking field trips to Shanghai, we are doomed...(not because of any ICBM's..but because of our attitude of servility)
>I do not believe.. Trade in anyway prevents 2 nations from going to war..That premise is bereft of any logic or historical evidence.. > You are absolutely right, but I am giving a fitting tribute to guys at south block. When it comes to china, their decision is mostly based on hope than any logic. What country would export its iron ores to china when we have less of it than china.
There was an interview in rediff sometime back. The senior army person was talking more out of hope and assumptions than ground reality.
Just notice what our govt will do when china diverts brahmaputra, effectively killing india.
Tambi Dude, Sure China has ICBM's to nuke us to the stone age, but now we have Agni-III to nuke them to the bronze age (not stone age) if necessary. Most of China is barren except for the West Coast of China, which is where a large portion of their economic activity lies. Nuke that and China is pushed back to 0 AD. Sure India will cease to exist maybe, but that is what MAD is all about.
we just tested agni-3 and already we have the ability to nuke them to bronze age. Even in movies they won't show things progressing so fast. But I get the gist of it. Once we have plenty of A-3 missile, we can some deterrent.
But china can thrash us in conventional wars also. That's why I maintain we are helpless. We can't go for nukes since we will be vaporized. We can't take them in conventional war also.
I hope some natural disaster strikes china and wipes them out. Say a repeat of 2003 SARS, only this time 1000 times more devastating.
Tambi Dude, When I meant "now" I meant in the near future (4-5 years) time, we will have a good deterrent. And where did you get the idea that we will lose in a conventional war. Let us look at the Chinese Airforce.
Looking at their fighters, Bulk of their fighters (500) is Chengdu F-7, a version of the Mig-21 (same as IAF) ,and they have 100 Su-30 MKK (less advanced than Su-30 MKI,of which we will by 2010 have 140 of them) and 100 Chengdu F-10, again same as a Su-30 . Plus we are ordering 125 new multi-role fighters (Mig-35 or F-18 E/F). So the fighter arm of the two countries is nearly the same. China has an edge over us, but it is not large and we can bridge the gap in 2010-2015.
Navy, we beat them hands down. China lacks an aircraft carrier, so we can use ours to cut off China's fuel supplies on the straits on Malacca.
Of course, it is not as simple as I say here and we will mostly lose but we will not lose horribly and China will lose most of their airforce and navy in a conventional war. In 1979 China invaded Vietnam, against overwhelming odds, the Vietnamese kicked China's ass.
So although we need to respect China we need not fear China.
the reason why china is dangerous is because of chinese 5th column in India - remember nehru refused to use IAF in 1962 (krishna menon?) - maybe this time brinda karat will forbid use of the Indian Army? - If we bend over and spread out wide then even Bhutan will screw us.
unlike muslims chinese are rational - so no they will not act like madmen - they will push very hard though
even the vietnamese defeated china -so yes they are beatable. - the harder thing compared to defeating China will be defeating commies in India
The link of bharat-rakshak talks about 1962 war. We all know what that war did to indian psyche (even that of army).
Let us stick to 1986 war, which you claimed India did well. This is what you wrote on 9 Mar
"By the way, China's surprise attempt on Tawang in 1986 was well taken care of by the late Gen. K. Sundarji. The 1986 fiasco isn't something China would want to remember."
This is what the CM of Arunachal Pradesh has to say in that rediff interview:-
"It was found that Kiran Rijiju had based his statement on the 1986 intrusion across the LAC (Line of Actual Control) by the Chinese in which they had taken a large chunk of our land in Tawang area occupying the Sumdorong Chu valley, Asapila and Lungur camps. These places fall in my constituency."
Whom shall I believe, you or the CM of AP :-)
I really hope that on this issue I am proved wrong when next time India and china go on a war.
i am not very happy with your posts. what i have observed:
1. you tend to repeat yourself 2. you tend to post the same thing on different threads 3. you are interested in scoring points rather than having a decent debate 4. you act juvenile 5. you are arrogant (i told you once that you have not exhibited any reason why we should accept your arrogance and know-it-all-ness; that is still true as you have displayed no particular insights) 6. your fear of china is annoying and not supported by facts. china is a big power in its own mind, and it believes in diplomatic theater. go and read gerald segal's slightly dated 'why china doesn't matter'. they are dangerous, but that doesn't mean india should just roll over and play dead.
i am asking you nicely to tone it down and act like a person who wants to engage in debate.
this is your second warning. your first warning was when i told you you annoyed me with your personal attacks on me, along with other peccadilloes.
there will be no third warning, i'll simply delete everything you post. as it is, i have been deleting a few of your opinions which were not supported by analysis.
here's a hint: starting by posting facts first, and there is no need to post them repeatedly. we can all read. once is enough.
then you can analyze something and post your opinion.
i hope this makes sense. my tolerance for disruptive elements is limited, as you have seen with the summary ejections of various people.
This is your blog. If you do not want me to post, fine I won't post. I don't think it is fair on my part to expect you to delete every post of mine, a manual job for you.
This is my last response. I had some fun pricking the massive ego of some contributors here who think that they know all, be it cricket of china-war.
kapidhwaja, sorry, despite the good pun i thought it appropriate to delete your comment.
tambidude, i am not keen to kick you out. but you do have to control yourself. you don't have enough of a track record here so that people accept your assertions at face value.
The Tawang assertion that I made was based on an assertion by Gen. Sundarji. Your quote of the Arunachal CM was dated after that. If what the Arunachal CM says then I will correct my previous opinion.
It is a different matter that we have such a garbage media that the ex-Army General and the existing CM make opposite statements and nobody holds them to account and tries to find out the truth - maybe when they pull their heads out of Modi's nether end they might start doing some reporting.
Here is what I said collect data --> form opinion -->new data -->update opinion
I was saying that I did not like Preset opinion-->collect selective facts to prove original opinion.
I have interacted with several Chinese and they are very competent and intelligent people. I do not think that they are very "superior" to us. If Uncle Sam pumps in millions of dollars into their society that does throw the equation off balance - just as supporting Pukistan threw the Indo-Pak equation off balance. I believe that when the money flow stops or in a crisis historical patterns will reassert themselves. Also the countries that have pumped trillions into China (US/Japan) are going to also have to face the chinese music - do you agree?
There are much smaller neighbours of China like Korea and Vietnam who have historically learnt how to deal with china - we should learn from them
24 comments:
OT,
Indian policy makers finally developing a spine?
http://www.saag.org/BB/view.asp?msgID=28748
Excellent policy of playing the Taiwan card will get Red China's goat. Also, we can sign a "peaceful nuclear cooperation" pact with Taiwan and slip them a few Brahmos missiles on the side
Thanks for posting the article, Hokiepride. It was a good read. Hope India officially adopts the Two-China policy and recognizes Taiwan soon. Taiwan could prove to be the 'Vibhishana' in our confrontation with the Chinese 'Ravana' in the future.
why is everyone so afraid of China
because they can decimate us and send us back to stone age. They have ICBMs to give hiroshima treatment to all our major cities.
Few months back I was flamed here for saying that and a poster called habc claimed that India beat the shit out of them in some imaginary war in 1986. At that time I had nothing to dispute that even though I was sceptical of that 'victory'.
Sure enuf, few weeks later I saw a news item in rediff in which one army person claimed that china grabbed land in 1986 while our govt and army did nothing.
personally I hate china and I hope some natural calamity takes care of them or their internal fighting. Conditions are ripe for social unrest in china. Unforutanaly we can't rely on hope alone.
here is the link which shows
that china kicked our ass
(again) in 1986.
http://inhome.rediff.com/news/2007/may/10china.htm
A word of advice to habc:
never quote wikipedia to prove your point. thanks.
that's a fearful scenario, give them arunachal pradesh quickly..who wants to live in stone age
i really dont think its the ability of China to bomb us to stone age that we need to fear (we can for sure pay back in kind)..Its got to do with how China has an unhindred ability to create trouble inside India and India's immediate neighborhood. The strangelhold that China has over India's decision making through media and their communist cronies is scary.
They are hard nosed imperialists who give a damn about the rest of the world as compared to pussy footing India. Look at the way we lack the gumption to handle Taiwan or Tibet to achieve strategic depth in our interactions with China.
I am not sure if u guys followed the news about India agreeing to not working on ICBM as a quid-pro-quid for the nuclear treaty with US. This is the kind of mentality prevalent in India that we need to fear.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1103986
check this news..
Harish,
"I really dont think its the ability of China to bomb us to stone age that"
I wish what you said is true.
Alas, china has the wherewithal
to do so, not to mention, their
imperialistic ideology. This is
one country which gives a flying
fuck to uncle Sam, why would
they think about India any more
than we think of mosquitos.
You know what is the attitude in south block re: china. They never
even assume that we can put up a
fight with them.
Notice that India is making china as our most preferred trading partner with the hope that once
trade grows between us, China will
not like to lose trade with us by
going to war.
harish,
you would have spoiled my day if
not for the fact that I read rediff
news before I read your link.
Check this: http://ia.rediff.com/news/2007/jun/18cap.htm
@TambiDude
I do not believe.. Trade in anyway prevents 2 nations from going to war..That premise is bereft of any logic or historical evidence..
India I believe has both the soft and hard power to take care of China.. but that can only happen when we Indians realise our intrinsic power...that comes from removing Nehruvians and commies from centers of power..
If we cower at US and fawn at China after taking field trips to Shanghai, we are doomed...(not because of any ICBM's..but because of our attitude of servility)
>I do not believe.. Trade in anyway prevents 2 nations from going to war..That premise is bereft of any logic or historical evidence..
>
You are absolutely right, but I
am giving a fitting tribute to
guys at south block. When it
comes to china, their decision
is mostly based on hope than
any logic. What
country would export its
iron ores to china when we have
less of it than china.
There was an interview in rediff sometime back. The senior army
person was talking more out of hope
and assumptions than ground reality.
Just notice what our govt will do
when china diverts brahmaputra,
effectively killing india.
Tambi Dude,
Sure China has ICBM's to nuke us to the stone age, but now we have Agni-III to nuke them to the bronze age (not stone age) if necessary. Most of China is barren except for the West Coast of China, which is where a large portion of their economic activity lies. Nuke that and China is pushed back to 0 AD. Sure India will cease to exist maybe, but that is what MAD is all about.
hokiepride,
we just tested agni-3 and already
we have the ability to nuke them
to bronze age. Even in movies they
won't show things progressing so fast. But I get the gist of it. Once we have plenty of A-3 missile, we can some deterrent.
But china can thrash us in conventional wars also. That's why I maintain we are helpless. We can't go for nukes since we will be vaporized. We can't take them in conventional war also.
I hope some natural disaster strikes china and wipes them out.
Say a repeat of 2003 SARS, only this time 1000 times more devastating.
Tambi Dude,
When I meant "now" I meant in the near future (4-5 years) time, we will have a good deterrent. And where did you get the idea that we will lose in a conventional war. Let us look at the Chinese Airforce.
Looking at their fighters,
Bulk of their fighters (500) is Chengdu F-7, a version of the Mig-21 (same as IAF) ,and they have 100 Su-30 MKK (less advanced than Su-30 MKI,of which we will by 2010 have 140 of them) and 100 Chengdu F-10, again same as a Su-30 . Plus we are ordering 125 new multi-role fighters (Mig-35 or F-18 E/F). So the fighter arm of the two countries is nearly the same. China has an edge over us, but it is not large and we can bridge the gap in 2010-2015.
Navy, we beat them hands down. China lacks an aircraft carrier, so we can use ours to cut off China's fuel supplies on the straits on Malacca.
Of course, it is not as simple as I say here and we will mostly lose but we will not lose horribly and China will lose most of their airforce and navy in a conventional war. In 1979 China invaded Vietnam, against overwhelming odds, the Vietnamese kicked China's ass.
So although we need to respect China we need not fear China.
tambi,
along with wikipedia - I also quoted bharat rakshak
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1962War/Walong.html
the reason why china is dangerous is because of chinese 5th column in India - remember nehru refused to use IAF in 1962 (krishna menon?) - maybe this time brinda karat will forbid use of the Indian Army? - If we bend over and spread out wide then even Bhutan will screw us.
unlike muslims chinese are rational - so no they will not act like madmen - they will push very hard though
even the vietnamese defeated china -so yes they are beatable. - the harder thing compared to defeating China will be defeating commies in India
habc,
The link of bharat-rakshak talks
about 1962 war. We all know what that war did to indian psyche (even that of army).
Let us stick to 1986 war, which you claimed India did well. This is what you wrote on 9 Mar
"By the way, China's surprise attempt on Tawang in 1986 was well taken care of by the late Gen. K. Sundarji. The 1986 fiasco isn't something China would want to remember."
This is what the CM of Arunachal Pradesh has to say in that rediff interview:-
"It was found that Kiran Rijiju had based his statement on the 1986 intrusion across the LAC (Line of Actual Control) by the Chinese in which they had taken a large chunk of our land in Tawang area occupying the Sumdorong Chu valley, Asapila and Lungur camps. These places fall in my constituency."
Whom shall I believe, you or the CM
of AP :-)
I really hope that on this issue I am proved wrong when next time India and china go on a war.
tambidude,
i am not very happy with your posts. what i have observed:
1. you tend to repeat yourself
2. you tend to post the same thing on different threads
3. you are interested in scoring points rather than having a decent debate
4. you act juvenile
5. you are arrogant (i told you once that you have not exhibited any reason why we should accept your arrogance and know-it-all-ness; that is still true as you have displayed no particular insights)
6. your fear of china is annoying and not supported by facts. china is a big power in its own mind, and it believes in diplomatic theater. go and read gerald segal's slightly dated 'why china doesn't matter'. they are dangerous, but that doesn't mean india should just roll over and play dead.
i am asking you nicely to tone it down and act like a person who wants to engage in debate.
this is your second warning. your first warning was when i told you you annoyed me with your personal attacks on me, along with other peccadilloes.
there will be no third warning, i'll simply delete everything you post. as it is, i have been deleting a few of your opinions which were not supported by analysis.
here's a hint: starting by posting facts first, and there is no need to post them repeatedly. we can all read. once is enough.
then you can analyze something and post your opinion.
i hope this makes sense. my tolerance for disruptive elements is limited, as you have seen with the summary ejections of various people.
Nizhal Y,
This is your blog. If you do not want me to post, fine I won't post. I don't think it is fair on my part to expect you to delete every post of mine, a manual job for you.
This is my last response. I had some fun pricking the massive ego of some contributors here who think that they know all, be it cricket of china-war.
Have a nice day. I won't waste your time anymore.
kapidhwaja, sorry, despite the good pun i thought it appropriate to delete your comment.
tambidude, i am not keen to kick you out. but you do have to control yourself. you don't have enough of a track record here so that people accept your assertions at face value.
Tambi,
I do hope that you keep posting here.
The Tawang assertion that I made was based on an assertion by Gen. Sundarji. Your quote of the Arunachal CM was dated after that. If what the Arunachal CM says then I will correct my previous opinion.
It is a different matter that we have such a garbage media that the ex-Army General and the existing CM make opposite statements and nobody holds them to account and tries to find out the truth - maybe when they pull their heads out of Modi's nether end they might start doing some reporting.
Here is what I said
collect data --> form opinion -->new data -->update opinion
I was saying that I did not like
Preset opinion-->collect selective facts to prove original opinion.
I have interacted with several Chinese and they are very competent and intelligent people. I do not think that they are very "superior" to us. If Uncle Sam pumps in millions of dollars into their society that does throw the equation off balance - just as supporting Pukistan threw the Indo-Pak equation off balance. I believe that when the money flow stops or in a crisis historical patterns will reassert themselves. Also the countries that have pumped trillions into China (US/Japan) are going to also have to face the chinese music - do you agree?
There are much smaller neighbours of China like Korea and Vietnam who have historically learnt how to deal with china - we should learn from them
correction
"pumps in millions of dollars into their society that does throw the equation off balance"
change to
pumps in trillions of dollars into their society that does throw the Indo-Chinese equation off balance
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