Thanks to Arjun Singh & Kangress. Now it is 50% reservations at IIMs. Why not go the whole hog and make it 80% reservations like Tamil Nadu? Or better still, just totally deny Forward Castes any seats in any institutions in the country. Who cares if the Forward Castes are driven out of this country?
All IIMs to reserve seats for OBC
30 comments:
How interesting that you mention TamilNadu without mentioning that it is doing much better than states which have lower reservation. Either that means that OBC etc are smarter than upper caste, or reservation makes no difference.
i get conflicted about reservations. i think there is a case for them at some relatively low level in % terms.
but i wouldn't use the tamil nadu example to assert that reservations == success. it is too hard to show these as correlates, much less as cause and effect. for instance, the BIMARU states have also done a fair amount of implementation of reservations, and so why aren't they also doing well?
to show the absurdness of the causal chain claim, i could assert that tamil nadu has the highest number of female infanticides (yes, in salem, dharmapuri, etc.), and therefore it's doing well. why, i am sure someone could make up a perfectly logical reason why this is true.
on the contrary, there are all sorts of reasons why tamil nadu is doing well. reservations may or may not be the cause of tamil nadu doing well. it's hard to say what are the most relevant causes.
1. the laser-like focus of all tamils to do things for tamil nadu rather than for the country at large. exhibit a: t r baalu. exhibit b: dayanidhi maran. exhibit c: ramadoss. thus highly disproportionate investment is extorted out of the center and into tamil nadu
2. in fairness, the tremendous work ethic of the average tamil, which i am always amazed by. these guys work hard, period. (lazy and querulous malayalis please note). for instance, the industriousness of the chettiars who went to burma, the gounders who have made tirupur a cluster for textiles, etc.
3. the unfair british-era treaties that madras presidency imposed by force and coercion on states like mysore, travancore etc. whereby the lion's share of the south's resources are expropriated by tamil nadu
4. the strong caste feelings which have enabled people to work with their fellow-caste-members
which of these is the key causative factor? your guess is as good as mine.
oops, didnt finish 4 above.
the examples of strong caste groupings helping each other with capital and support networks is particularly good in tamil nadu, the aforementioned chettiars and gounders being two.
thus, i could claim that caste-consciousness is the reason tamil nadu is doing well.
I guess words like 'Tamil Nadu', 'Chennai' and 'reservations' are generally lightning rods for verbal tirades everywhere (online and offline) :-)
I would have agree with many parts of Rajeev's argument that there is absolutely no causal relation between reservation and TN's very strong economic progress. But i believe that the caste reservations have give the so called 'lower castes' a stake in the growth of the state which i think is very important for social order and stability (which relates to economic growth)...But as KapiDhwaja rightly said..the Dravidian lunatics that rule the state if given an opportunity would gass the Hindu forward castes and suck up to the Christian evangelicals if given an opportunity...
I think there is more to TN's growth than just a bunch of cabinet ministers sitting in Delhi (most of the other cabinet ministers from other states neither do anything for their state or the country.. ).
I think the onus on education is extremely strong in TN, the work ethic(as Rajeev pointed out) and the extremely strong roots to the Tamil language and culture is what makes TN successful i guess..
I have also found folks from TN to maintain a very low profile and many of the state's unique characteristics always (i mean every time) gets drowned in nonsensical talk about Hindi Vs Tamil garbage..
I generally agree with what has been posted in this article. I hail from the Tirupur industrial belt and honestly, this place is becoming the new magnet for labor intensive textile production..
And about reservations, i do have a feeling that TN has overdone it. I have got some brilliant FC friends who werent able to get into Anna University simply becoz huh, they were FC's. When i see some people with lesser aptitudes wasting their opportunities in Anna University, i am frankly disappointed at the negative manner in which reservations have worked.
Another point being put forth is that tamils are ,well, mostly atheists and many secretly profess to follow evangelism. This is the most ridiculous comments i have ever heard. We are the proudest hindus who will go to any extent to defend the religion. There have been instances where missionaries have been subjected to harassment in some places simply becoz they loudmouthed polemic that was only vaguely attacking.
And ironicaly, the DMK , which is the guardian of 'dravidianism' is shedding its skin all too fast. Even that grand old man karunanidhi knows that his ideology is fast reaching the grave ; nowadays, elections in TN are fought only over things such as free color tv and stuff.
I think we need to clear up the mostly illfounded misconceptions that have arisen in minds of people in other states of india..
Rajeev and others,
Of various reasons that are behind Tamil Nadu doing well the most important one, at least according to me, is the TN government’s education policy! You may be surprised to hear this because, believe me, reservation in government colleges is not the sole education policy of TN government. It also allowed and helped private industrialists and local communities to set up universities and colleges, including Medical and Engineering colleges.
Now there are far more, lots and lots more, of private colleges and universities in TN than government colleges. In Coimbatore alone the ratio would be at least 10:1 in favor of private colleges! This policy also helped to rescue the private college education from the clutches of Christist “service” cartel! Now there are lots and lots of Hindu educational institutions in TN, may be almost proportional to their share of 90% in TN population or quiet close to it.
This policy was set up after Karnataka, precisely Manipal, started attracting Tamil students with its private educational institutions. So to stop the brain drain TN just followed the Karnataka model and beat them with it. You can see lots and lots of Malayalee students lining up to join these private colleges, especially in Coimbatore. So much for 90% literacy rate in Kerala. Not enough colleges to go when you come out of high school I guess! Another example for the failures of Stupid Commie/Socialist policies. The bigger irony is this TN government policy was set in 80s by the late TN CM, a former matinee idol, MGR, who was a Sri Lankan born Malayalee!!
50% of the seats in these private colleges are pure merit and remaining is Management quota. So reservation in these colleges is applicable only to the 50% of the seats the rest are open seats. Of course you have to pay full fees and some times a lump some donation also, but usually it is very affordable.
This policy enabled private persons with lots of black money to invest in education, to get some punniam for all the pavams they did I guess! As a result colleges, including engineering colleges, were started in the remotest of villages and the running cost is so low fees is almost same as government colleges. It is a win-win situation.
This low fees or at least affordable fees enabled even a small farmer to send his/her children not just up to high school but also to a college and get a degree. This is why you see lots of IT professionals, even in the US, from small towns and villages of TN making good money.
That’s why I think this education policy of TN government is far more important than anything else for the success of Tamils in general and Tamil Nadu in particular.
Comments are most welcome.
Tambi Dude said>>> Tamils are still not entrepreneurs…. In fact overwhelming majority of industries, firms and corporations in TN are not owned by Tamils.
Well this may be true here in the US but certainly not in Tamil Nadu. All the major industrial houses, beginning with Chettinadu cements and its groups, SUN TV network, Sakthi sugars, ABT transport and Annamalai group of companies, HCL – Shiv Nadar, Shri Ram group, Ramco systems and group, Standard fire works, Saravana Bhavan group of hotels, Bannari Amman sugars and group of companies, India cements, Dharani sugars which also owns Le Meridian in Chennai, Gem granites, Thinathanthi publishers, KPN travels, TVS, Vinayaga Mission, SKM food processing company and so on and so forth to small time business houses are Tamil. 90% of the multi billion dollar Tirupur knit wear export industry is owned and controlled by Gounders – who are 100% agmark Tamilians. The list goes on and on and on.
This is just a small list for your question – “how many Tamil entrepreneurs we know?” It would have served you better if you have just stopped with this question but you still managed to pass your verdict. It is just amazing. So where did you pull this “In fact overwhelming majority of industries, firms and corporations in TN are not owned by Tamils” from?
Just because outsiders are accepted and allowed to settle and do business in TN does not mean they are using “madrasi” employees. That is just a disgusting way to think.
@tambi...
I really dont think u have any reason whatsoever to throw tantrums at KapiDhwaja.. I think he was being sarcastic.. when he said "y not gass the forward castes in TN"...please try to understand the contxt before venting u r spleen man..
As @siva said it is totally "disgusting" to think outsiders use "madrasis" to run their bizness..its time to change u r opinion Mr.tambi...
Tambi..Many of u r comments show u r lack of understanding of the thread here, your ignorance of the economics and dynamics of the state of TN!!..
I think we owe it to everyone to have a decent conversation here!!..
Tambi Dude,
The other way to look at the equation is that TN could have done much better than it already has - had it not deprived the forward caste Tamil's of the opportunities that it did. Considering that TN was virtually untouched by the Islamic armies - I think you should have done much better.
The best analysis of this issues remains Ram Swarups' who said that what the progressive intellectuals such as yourself want is not India without Caste, but Caste without Dharma.
I also disagree that reservations has not diluted standards. Please read Arun Shourie's 'Falling Over Backwards' for instances of when this has happened - including in a medical institute in TN.
I would also not fully agree with Rajeev's contention that there is a place for reservation. There is a place for "equalisation of opportunity" - however in India (and specially in TN) reservations have become a device for "equalisation of outcomes"... which is quite a terrible injustice.
In the end if you go in for caste based reservations - you will only end up strengthening the distribution of good along caste line - hence strengthen caste
siva: Thanks for correcting me. Somehow the india I knew and left long time back did not have any big industries owned by tamil. of course HCL and TVS were well known.
harish: I agree that we should be civil. Surprising that you did not notice how kapidhawaja posted this.IMO it was bit provocative.
Ghost Writer,
Can you name one country where Affirmative action or reservation is not done on racial or ethnic lines.
Caste based reservation system seem
to be same like it.
Which other criteria should be used for reservation. Economic??? Given the level of corruption in India, it will most likely be abused.
Tambi Dude,
In worrying of abuse of an economic-criteria based system, you are presuming that the one based on caste is not. Ever heard of the 'creamy layer'?
Interesting challenge you have thrown up on how other countries do affirmative action. All other countries that I know of reject affirmative action based on race ALONE. In the US the seminal case in this regard was Grutter v. Bollinger. Read about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger
A few things you would kindly note
1- The court in the US held that 'quotas' are illegal - quotas it seems is the only thing that can satisfy the "great white ghost" reservation lobby in India
2- The affirmative action candidates were given 20 points in addition to what they scored. Hence the requirement for merit was not completely waived away. Again read Shourie's book I have already recommended to see how TN waives - WAIVES - requirements related to merit
3- If in the US - the college is unable to find the required number of 'minority candidates' - even after awarding them a bonus 20 points, the seats are given to whites, as opposed to our system in which they are carried forward.
I can almost sense that your next argument will be - 'since India had a caste system and the US did not, so we must find our own way in affirmative action'.
It is like Ram Swarup said - our new social justice intellectuals do not want India without caste, they want caste without Dharma. Please read this article in full and cogitate
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0996/0044.html
I will try to post more links on this soon.
Ghost Writer,
Where did I presume caste based will not be abused. But in indian context it is far easier to abuse economic criteria than caste.
Malaysia has AA based on race.
Canada has special quota for native indians (who are like our SC/ST). If I am not mistaken, same is true for Aus and NZ who have quota for Aborginees and Mauri(sp?) people.
FYI I am not in favour of reservation as it is implemented today. Everybody knows it is a vote bank policy. I was just trying to compare our reservation system with that of other countries and the similarity is that the AA/reservation system in other countries also is purely based on race. We are not doing anything special.
Most of the comments by@indianpatriot seem to be the typical nonsensical regurgitation of "facts" about TN.. My only request is next time you want to quote anything about TN... try o read up about the state, its economic vitality and it society before you go on your favorite field trip abusing the people and the state..
I think @GhostWriter made cople of intresting points..Is there a way our politicians can be made to feel the "pain" for their stupid reservation policies..I found the recent song and drama oustide AIIMS was just that (song, drama and rang De Basanti style stuff).. the students had to go about their mundane lives soon.. and the govt went back to it original ways..
Caste based reservations "seem to work" in a "democratic country" like India simply because the "forward castes" are smaller in number and their votes do not matter.. Just as in TN.. how much ever abuse is heaped on them.. the "forward castes" keep coming back to the state/ country with intellectual and monetary investments
The sad part with reservations is neither BJP or Congress is against any of this...
Tamil Nadu is doing well, which is good.
And precisely that is the reason why reservation is no longer an issue in TN. FC have pvt colleges like Sri Venkateswara etc to go to. It is a win win situation for most if not all.
Unforutantely unless something is an issue, no one cares to fix it. You can forget any public debate on reservation in TN and any attempt to fix it.
@ Tambi Dude
Where did I presume caste based will not be abused. But in indian context it is far easier to abuse economic criteria than caste
Any empirical data to back up this claim? I think it is the other way round - caste being a more elastic idea (caste affiliation and identity is fluid) than income and assets (empirically measurable); chances of a caste-based AA being abused is higher. This is actually the case and causes 'creamy layer' to arise. Also what about if a father gets in through caste based AA and earns lots of money. Should his son be entitled to reservation? If yes, what criteria will you use to exclude the son?
Malaysia has AA based on race.
Which are enforced by the Malays to protect - hold your breath - majority Malay rights. This system is enforced by holding the minorities under duress, and is actually resented by the loosers (Indians & Chinese), who can do nothing about it. They also have race riots where the Malay Muslims kill Chinese and Indians, pillage their businesses etc. Do you want that happening in India?
Canada has special quota for native indians (who are like our SC/ST).
As a resident Canadian I can attest that the Canadian Employment Equity Act actually does not work on the concept of race ALONE; it identifies four disadvantaged groups ; women, aboriginal peoples, members of visible minorities, and persons with disabilities
ALSO IT SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITS QUOTAS AND DOES NOT DILUTE STANDARDS
Read more about it here - incidentally a Government of Canada page
http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/asp/gateway.asp?hr=/en/lp/lo/lswe/we/publications/mr/myths_realities.shtml&hs=
Guess you picked the wrong country!
If I am not mistaken, same is true for Aus and NZ who have quota for Aborginees and Mauri(sp?) people.
I don't know much about this case, but can find out if you like. I am willing to bet that this system also will not work on the factor of race ALONE
FYI I am not in favour of reservation as it is implemented today. Everybody knows it is a vote bank policy
You have not provided the alternative to the one being implemented today. That notwithstanding, the reality is that caste based reservations (does not matter how you apply it) will eventually degenerate into vote bank politics. In all the years of fussing & fuming - the socially progressive, pro-reservation lobby has yet to identify a "better caste-based way". You are welcome to try!
Indianpatriot asked>>> you look at construction labor in Bangalore, Mysore, Mangalore, Hubli or Cochin, Trivandrum, it is 100 % Tamilian. If Tamilnadu is so advanced industrially why so much outward migration of labor?
May be because people in those places are lazy asses :-)
On a serious note most of those laborers are from the northern districts of TN, bordering Karnataka, which are usually arid lands and also they all left the state some 20 years ago. Nowadays most of these people just travel to different districts in TN itself to find jobs.
Indianpatriot asked>>> Also why Infosys and other software companies flourish in Bangalore not in Tamil Nadu?
You got to be kidding me. All these companies already have mega offices in Chennai also. Just because you don’t know something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And you honestly don’t believe they hire only Kannadigas in their Bangalore offices, do you? From what I have heard majority of the software employees in Bangalore are non-Kannadigas, who came from all over India.
Indianpatriot said>>> For your information Karnataka was the fastest growing south Indian State in GDP terms.
I don’t want to get into a stupid argument about who is bigger but this statement is just bullshit. Any body that knows ABCs of Indian economy will tell you that TN is the economic leader in south and most of the time it is just behind Maharashtra in over all prosperity and economic activity.
So cut your crap and stop bashing TN and Tamils.
KapiDhwaja,
You are precisely on the money about reservation policy in TN. What is happening right now is just government sanctioned discrimination if not apartheid. This policy needs to be over hauled completely and be made more inclusive.
GhostWriter,
It is easier to get a fake income certificate and not get caught then to get a fake caste certificate. Reason being, caste is intrinsically woven to the social fabric. Caste comes with some baggage which is not easy to shed.
Re: father and son, I strongly believe that only one person in a family must avail reservation. It can not be abused generation to generation. This is regardless of caste vs income criteria for reservation.
>Guess you picked the wrong country!
Did you notice that Canada does not follow economic criteria for any special treatment. Is there a country where economic criteria is the sole criteria for any affirmative action. if not, why?
Why is that the group benefiting from any reservation/AA or whatever you call it, is always identifiable by race, community, but not by economic status alone. To put in other words, is there a country which has AA model inclusive of all race/community (assuming that it is a multicultural country like Canada) with economic criteria.
If not, why?
>You have not provided the alternative to the one being implemented today.
Speaking of India, I think certain % can be reserved for communities with no economic criteria.
Clearly there are some communities who are lagging behind others. It is not a coincidence that the avg income of such communities is very low. Various reports by govt show that.
The other criteria should be purely on economic criteria for all caste.
This way, the first will give helping hand to those caste who have been oppressed for centuries (let us face it, dalits have been oppressed for centuries), while the second will help poor FC.
May not the best, but better than present.
Lastly, no reservation for more than one generation in a family.
Can there be an incentive for people across Hindu scoiety to move up the caste ladder..may be after a generation of reservation to call a so called 'backward caste' a forward..
Can incentive(would social acceptance and recognition)
for these new people do the trick.
In the past especially in south there have been instances when great saints (saint Ramanuja) have done this..Making the "so called lower castes" as Brahmins.. Over the course of years they become as "forward caste" as it can be..
I think such changes in social structures should come from religous leaders and not Govt..
do u guys think if this is way out of the need for reservation and perhaps large scale social upliftment and betterment of Hindu society..
@ Tambi Dude
(let us face it, dalits have been oppressed for centuries) and Lastly, no reservation for more than one generation in a family.
These two give the game away. It seems to me that your reservation system makes up for historical wrongs (Unlike you - I do not believe the popular theory of such oppression being everywhere and forever in India, but we can disagree on that). What we can agree on I hope, is that the reservation crutch was never intended to undo historical wrongs, but was an opportunity enabler. The question might well be asked - how does reservation of one generation make up for historical wrong over many hundred years? Or consider something else - the usual complaint that caste discrimination outlives social mobility i.e. someone will say "Sir I am now a High court judge, but still people do not look on me as a judge. They only know me as a dalit". If that is the case, then why block his son? After all, he is still suffering. Not convinced? look at how 'backward caste' Muslims want caste based reservation even though Islam does not recognise caste. If caste can outlive religious conversion, it could well outlive a judge-ship.
On the flip side if a destitute Brahmin boy is denied admission so as to reserve a certain percentage for others (as you would have it), what historical wrong has he committed?
It is easier to get a fake income certificate and not get caught then to get a fake caste certificate.
It is actually equally easy to fake a birth certificate in India. I can reincarnate myself as an SC/ST if I really wanted to (including shedding cultural baggage - whatever that means). Why is one fake better over the other?
Is there a country where economic criteria is the sole criteria for any affirmative action. if not, why? and Speaking of India, I think certain % can be reserved for communities with no economic criteria.
Is there any other country where birth is the only criteria. If not, why?
Who determines the exact percentage in your scheme and how? Remember all this has to be done without 'degenerating into vote bank politics' as you like to put it.
How many individuals in a certain caste will have to avail themselves of the reservation benefit before the caste is classified as not being backward anymore? 100%? But that would mean the caste is eternally backward as you may not be able to reserve seats for all of them. Who will maintain the register of benefits to ensure that sons, grandsons and great-grandsons of folks that have availed of reservation benefits do not do so again. Would such a register system not be open to abuse? Bribes go a long way in India
My problem is not even caste, which as an institution has made the allegedly "lower caste" Hindus proud to be Hindus (caste identity actually reinforces Hindu-ness contrary to what some people think)
The problem is
1- The setting aside, the absolute waiving away of merit. Under your scheme of a fixed %, the caste-candidate will not be required to score anything and still get through .In a fixed quota system, quite possible that you don't get anyone from a certain caste score a base minimum, what do you do then? Allow second and third grade performers priority over first graders. This commitment to non-excellence is suicidal for everyone - including the intended beneficiaries
2- The discourse leads to "lower caste" Hindus forever taking resort to "victimisation politics". In the US this is best exemplified as Martin Luther King Jr. vs. Louis Farakhan (i.e. "content of their character" vs. "where is my reparation cheque"). The reservationists, in terms of discourse are not Dr King.
Clearly there are some communities who are lagging behind others. It is not a coincidence that the avg income of such communities is very low. Various reports by govt show that.
But that is only because caste in India is tied to profession. If your entire caste is in the boot making trade and China dumps cheap boots into the Indian market, chances are your caste just became backward. The thing to do is to facilitate professional mobility. How will a demerited reservation system assure that for the whole caste (as opposed to individuals in te creamy layer of that caste)
>These two give the game away.
what do you mean by this. Do I have a hidden agenda. Pray tell.
FYI I am a brahmin. There was a time when I was too vociferously anti reservation. But over a period of time I realized that reservation system isn't that bad as made out to be. Some folks do need a helping hand and incidentally most of them belong to a group of caste.
Take a trip to BIMARU states and see for yourself how some dalits live.
10-15 yrs ago it use to be "giving engg and medical seats to less qualified person will lower the standard blah blah". TN disproved it and now some other reason is cooked up to show how reservation system will ruin india.
Interestingly folks who left India for good are the ones to shout the most about reservation.
>Is there any other country where birth is the only criteria. If not, why?
Have you forgotten that the first requirement for utilizing AA in US/Canada is that the person must belong to a certain race. Do you see AA for White Anglo Saxon Christians. If not, why?
As a resident of Canada you can perhaps spend your time arguing about this with Stephen Harper rather than talking about reservation in india.
ps: also in TN one has to see certain organizations where brahmins dominate. BHEL Trichy, TVS is one good example. So much for 80% reservation. I believe certain banks also.
Have you forgotten that the first requirement for utilizing AA in US/Canada is that the person must belong to a certain race.
Sir - I have already identified the four groups in Canada for you - and not all of them is race. Here they are again.
"women, aboriginal peoples, members of visible minorities, and persons with disabilities"
So the first requirement is not race ALONE. YOU COULD BE A WHITE ANGLO SAXON WOMAN OR DISABLED PERSON AND QUALIFY FOR AA.Note you have said nothing about non-dilution of standards.
Since I am not as passionately Canadian as I am Indian - I will skip your advise on Stephen Harper (who by the way is Conservative and opposed to AA, but that is a different matter)
what do you mean by this. Do I have a hidden agenda. Pray tell. FYI I am a brahmin.
You have no hidden agenda. In fact now that you have told me your caste, please note I am an OBC (from the BIMARU states at that), and would not ever list myself as such.
The game I was referring to was of course - how do you treat reservation. As a justification for historical wrong or as an opportunity equaliser? You gave the game away in the sense it became apparent to me that you are treating it as the former. I was imputing no motive at all.
In fact in being Brahmin - may I say you have swallowed wholesale the huge doses of guilt dished out by the OBC - lobby (my caste brethren)
Only in India :-),
In TN one has to see certain organizations where brahmins dominate. BHEL Trichy, TVS is one good example
If you look I am sure you fill find TN organization that are non-brahmin dominated. Shiv Nadar and his businesses comes immediately to mind. Also I believe Tamil Nadu Mercantile Bank in Tuticorin is now owned by the Nadar community/ caste. The Chettiyar* community has always dominated business ventures. What of that?
I have a perfectly good explanation for this - if you are willing to listen. Indians (not just Hindus) in business, as in life and politics, tend to coalesce around caste lines. If one person from a certain caste goes into business and his acumen and vision are manifestly visible, his caste-fellows will usually chip in and do collective risk taking. Caste is also the equal of India's social security net. Instead of government-funded and managed inefficient programs, Indians tend to look after each other along caste lines in collective Dharma.
This is not fancy talk, please believe me. I used to feel the same way as you do, until I saw the truth about caste organisation on a visit to my ancestral village. I feel the city born and raised, urban dweller who has been deprived of the benefits of caste existence is the most confused about caste. I feel the following paradigms need change
1- Hindu society is defined only by its casteism and other-worldliness
2- Caste is inherently evil and only a mechanism for exploitation
3- We do not want caste, but we want caste based reservations. How can you have one and weaken the other at the same time?
* - I could be wrong about the name. It is P Chidambram's caste
I have not read the whole thread so no comments on it for now.
Just a suggestion - should we move threads with lots of comment traffic to the top of the page? What do you guys think? There is one problem though - since the posts are by date and time how would it work and get archived?
Ghostwriter, let us agree to disagree then. Anyhow debating here hardly makes any difference to the issue. heck, politicans won't even acknowledge our existence as we don't even vote.
I like this blog for the news it provides. I rarely read the comment section. Debating in internet (be it newsgroups, forums or blogs) is a useless excercise in ego wars, specially when folks don't even reveal their real name.
I will continue to read this blog for the news. Keep up the good work.
Indianpatriot,
How reliable can a Commie web site (you showed as proof!) be is anybody’s guess and besides it is pretty pretty old. If you want to show proof show some latest numbers and make sure it is really bipartisan. If not it is not worth the paper it is written on. FYI there are many number of web sites, including the bureau of statistics of the GOI, with most recent data that backs up my claim. Just google them yourself.
Indianpatriot said>>> ….will divert with personal attacks….
So you will attack an entire state and people with wrong information and half-baked theories and if people want you to shut up you start complaining that it is a personal attack on you. Come on grow up and stop being a hypocrite.
Indianpatriot said>>> Tamilnadu is also doing well. But could have done much better if all Dravidians of Karunadhi variety (probably Tambi Dude variety) are sent across to Jaffna
It is true not just for Karunanidhi but also for every politician of India. Do you think J M Patil, Dharam Singh and Deve Gowda (all former CM’s of Karnataka) are better than Karunanidh? come on.
Indianpatriot said>>> Like Bimaru states only Tamilians elect politicians on promise of Free TV
Again this shows your bigotry and the Kannadiga chauvinism. Who are you, Vattal Nagaraj? Also this reveals your ignorance about TN politics. Free color TV alone did not win the election for DMK, there were various other factors like strong alliance and previous governments anti incumbency. Besides this is not a thumping victory for Karunanidhi either. If Vijayakanth had not played spoil sport Jayalalitha would have scrapped through. If you want to write about something do yourself a favor, learn the issues first.
Indianpatriot said>>> I hope next central govt (to be elected sooner than later hopefully before the year end way things are going) will keep all brain dead Dravidians(I mean Tamil ministers) as far as away from Govt for India's progress. The previous NDA govt was one such.
Once again you are wrong. When will you get your facts straight. The previous NDA had just as many “Dravidian” ministers as the current UPA including the Reverend T.R. Balu :-). Please stop writing with nonsensical “facts” and half-baked theories and stop making a complete fool of yourself.
How true is this?
Excerpt
The south Indian state of Tamil Nadu may have the worldwide highest rate of churches per capita. Though only a small minority of people call themselves Christians, there are said to be as many as 1500 independent Christian churches represented in the Independent Churches of India Association in Chennai (earlier Madras). Most of them belong to the huge and ever-growing group of evangelical churches that are founded and supported from abroad. Some are Anglican or Orthodox splinter groups. Many are Pentecostals of different origin. They have names like Calvari Mission Trust or Halleluyah Full Gospel Missionaries of India. Though quite tiny and never heard of, many of these independent churches have their own bishops. Nobody knows exactly, how many robed men are roaming around, who has appointed them and who is paying them.
Habc,
It is very true. I myself have wondered why there are so many churches when not enough Christians around to go there. And most of the “independent churches” are run in homes where a room is converted as a place of “worship” and they call it as church. Kind of like small scale cottage industry. This would help them to extract more money for the loony Christians in the west.
Immediately after the tsunami hit some “service” cartel members of a church (I forgot the name and denomination) came to a village with two lorry loads of clothes and food but demanded that people should convert to Christianity before accepting their “help”. It enraged the villagers so much that even in their time of grief and despair they stood by their dharma, refused to convert, beat the shit out of the Christists and literally chased them away. This incident was covered widely by all the Tamil vernacular press and interestingly not by our ELM slave bastards. No prize for guessing why.
Recently a Bishop was arrested for cheating tsunami victims and building contractors in the name of tsunami relief. This news was also covered extensively by the Tamil press and not so by our ELM slaves.
So what the article says is very true and was/is widely covered by all the Tamil vernacular press. It is a fact.
Habc said>>> Just a suggestion - should we move threads with lots of comment traffic to the top of the page? What do you guys think? There is one problem though - since the posts are by date and time how would it work and get archived?
I second this idea. Anybody else?
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