july 8, 2006
only it's not very clear of which country. china or pakistan spring to mind. mishra's motto: never miss an opportunity to trash india, hindus, and hinduism. his heart bleeds for mohammedans and marxists.
many of india's english-language journalists are widely suspected of being extremely corrupt, and of taking money to push certain points of view. given their otherwise incomprehensible support of chinese and pakistani interests, it is widely believed that large retainers are being paid to fifth-columnists in the media to 'plant' stories.
the irony is that if india is poor, still, it is because of people just like mishra, the 'lords of poverty', who do not want indians to claw their way out of poverty. if they did, who would be available to lionize them? india's 'intellectuals' have thoroughly messed up with their dirigiste and stalinist economic policies; in fact they have perpetrated a crime against humanity by preventing 250 million indians from escaping from obscene poverty; which they would have done because indians are fundamentally industrious. instead, they have deliberately kept indians poor so their silly socialist slogans would have some takers.
on average, i'll take a ruthless capitalist over these innumerate, brainwashed water-carriers for mao and mullahs and rednecks any day.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/06/opinion/06mishra.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5087%0A&en=0e626126e1353c7f&ex=1152417600
interesting, again, upper-caste, i presume. isn't mishra some sort of upper-caste name?
i have started observing the castes of various people, and it is quite amazing that the majority of the quislings and jaichands of india seem to be upper-caste people. bengali and tamil brahmins seem to be in the forefront, other north indian upper-castes just behind. (of course, this being inductive logic, that does not mean *all* or even *most* upper-caste people are quislings and jaichands.)
why this self-hatred? why this rootlessness? why this death-wish? is it because many upper-caste people fancy themselves as global citizens, in other words they have the option of toddling off to the US or some other place in a crunch?
why do many OBCs, on the other hand, seem to be more decidedly patriotic? is it because they have no place to go but india, and they have seen what happened to their compatriots in bangladesh and pakistan? this is not a rhetorical question, i am just wondering what the reason behind all this is.
14 comments:
"is it because many upper-caste people fancy themselves as global citizens, in other words they have the option of toddling off to the US or some other place in a crunch?"
--- Rajeev, you got me wondering too. Didnt you go to US ? If so why ? Do you still go there ? If so why ?
How much time should one stay in India to be considered patriotic ? Or not stay in US to be consdiered unpatriotic ? What should their immigration status be ? what kinds of companies/orgs should one work for or support, to be considered patriotic ?
So many questions come to mind.
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Rajeev asked >>> why do many OBCs, on the other hand, seem to be more decidedly patriotic?
IMO most OBCs livelihood are invariably tied to the land like agriculture, live stock etc and hence has a strong attachment to the land they live in. On the other hand most upper caste community do not depend on the land for their livelihood and are more mobile within the country itself and hence has no roots to the land. I think this is one of the major reasons for OBCs being more patriotic compared to Brahmins. What do you all think?
KapiDhwaja said >>>BTW, most of the top scientists in India's nuclear establishment are Tamil Brahmins, who working for paltry Govt. salaries & pension, helped design our nuclear weapons. I don't think anybody can get more patriotic than that, barring of course our soldiers.
Very good points you raised here.
"On the other hand most upper caste community do not depend on the land for their livelihood and are more mobile within the country itself and hence has no roots to the land. I think this is one of the major reasons for OBCs being more patriotic compared to Brahmins. What do you all think?"
---- siva, depends on how you define patrotism.
there different thigs different people would consider patriotic/unpatriotic.
without a proper definition, i dont know if OBC's should considered more patriotic. i dont think they should be.
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san, thanks for the interesting links as usual. of course you had posted the pankaj mishra link here in the first place. i liked the one on the diplomats. last year, the pakistani ambassador to the un, by the way, munir akram i think (isn't he also one of pakistan's candidates for un sec gen?) was in the news for seriously physically abusing his eastern european girlfriend. nice example of mohammedan egalitarianism.
shiva, good point about obc attachment to the soil. i also wonder if the obcs are the ones most often competing directly with the mohammedans and the christists (and the targets of christist hate speech) so that they have seen the beast up close and personal as it were.
kapidhwaja, perhaps i made too broad a statement about tamil brahmins. for every execrable n. ram type, there are the kasturirangans and other scientists, who as you said, work for a pittance in defence labs. but i do see an interesting tendency among tamil brahmins: they tend to argue from what they consider a 'neutral' perspective, damning both 'left' and 'right'. unfortunately, in india, the level of discourse has been so seriously distorted that what is considered 'neutral' in india would be considered 'far left' in any other country. the 'right' in india is in fact 'slightly left of center', and the 'left' is 'lunatic fringe left'. i think because of the macaulayite system, as you point out, this definition of 'neutral' has been drilled into them. also, i think there is a collective stockholm syndrome: tamil brahmins have been so brutalized by the fascists of the dmk etc that they have started believing that they deserve the ill-treatment. thirdly, my point about tamil brahmins having options outside tamil nadu and indeed outside india -- many of them are well-connected and are in fact global citizens.
in this context, it is the bengali upper-castes who are the most pathetic: they stood by and watched their womenfolk being grabbed by bangladeshi mohammedans; they fled to india, and now they are getting ready to flee west bengal, never taking a stand and fighting for their lives and their honor. there is the remarkable story of bengali bhadralok refugees arriving in assam, and the king of assam asking them why there were no women among them. the bhadralok said, "we were not allowed to take our women with us"!!!! these are the people now pontificating at the rest of india on how to behave.
"thirdly, my point about tamil brahmins having options outside tamil nadu and indeed outside india -- many of them are well-connected and are in fact global citizens."
-- So also is Shashi Tharoor, a global citizen, whom you were backing so much a few days back, on various grounds, such including Malayali, and also "Not many Indians are known globally", and saying that makes Tharoor a good case for UN secy genl.
Tharoor is neither Tamil Brahmin nor "upper caste". But a very very global citizen.
Why is it that you support the same things in a Malayali and a relative of your frieds (his uncle/sister), that you would oppose in Tamil Brahmin ?
Why is it that you support the same things in a Nair that you would oppose in a Tamil Brahmin ? Or some other Brahmin.
It makes me think that everything you uphold is only what is closest closest to your heart, thus making you no different from any other individual I know. Everyone is attached to different things. So are you.
OBC's today are going to vote en-masse for the (most unnameable person). Will they still deserve to be called the most patriotic at the end of it ?
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Typo correction (for Rajeev):
"It makes me think that everything you uphold is only what is closest closest to your heart, thus making you no different from ***many other individuals*** I know."
I know a lot of people who appear neutral (damning both left and right, or, supporting neither left nor right), because what they uphold is just principles.
There is a nice word for that in Stephen Covey's writings. Maybe I will mention it some other time.
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On the question whether Brahmins are more patriotic of OBC's, here is one line of thinking.
Brahmins usually work in places/careers wherein physical threats are minimal. They are far more 'fearful' than say OBCs or some other castes. Thus, a bit of coercive pressure (physically) divides Brahmins into two distinct types. The first will mould their opinions to suit/please those who threaten..(many - not all - bengali intellectuals fall in this class. Be tough with them and they will start agreeing with you. Be mild to them, and they will start grouping against you!! ). The second group resists, argues, and looks for better options elsewhere (the NRI types) if the physical threats get loud. This second group rarely deviates from patriotic path. Whereever they are, they will try to contribute to the country, in whatever way they can. Let us not forget that Brahmins were in the forefront in the revolutionary struggle against the British Raj.
OBCs are less 'fearful' than brahmins simply because their typical vocations demand some toughness. They have an instinctive sense of the ground situation immediately around them, but not really an overall picture.
Not being people of word or language, you do not find many non-brahmins writing for the Marxist/Mullah/Missionary axis.
In the end, indiviuals will be only as patriotic as the situation allows them to be. If any of Church-Churchill-China-Russia is providing money and support, some people will be willing to take it..just as a part of the job. Brahmins will write articles, argue in favour of their 'employers'; others will do whatever they are good at. As we all know, a lot of Indians are being paid for doing anti-India work. (Mithrokin archive reference).
The sad thing is, there is little organised support to the Hindu cause. Just like luck needs a chance, patriotism, too, needs a suitable environment. You cannot be patriotic if you don't have enough to eat OR if there are threats of all kind around you.
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Lovely to hear that, indeed!
Yes, Three Cheers!!!
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Discussion of whether Brahmins are less patriotic even as OBCs are more patriotic is a foolish discussion to enter into.
Because this is precisely what the congress-wadis want -- with hindus at each others throats, killing their own, they are free to vivisect bharat and divide the spoils amongs the "minorities"
its divide and rule all over again, and we're falling for it hook, line and sinker.
I Can point out several brahmins who are "arch" patriots and several OBCs who are leftist anti-nationals.
All this discussion misses the main point: which is so long as the congress/left etc. has the reins of education in their hand (a la Ramadoss) and the media Bending over and greasing up for them, none of our beliefs and truths are going to matter, as we aint gonna have nobody listening to them. Case in point: media reported ad nauseam the min-riot caused by the shiv sena in mumbai today, completely ignored the carnage in bhiwandi.
Online fights such as "my OBC is stronger than your brahmin" only worsen our position.
Rajeev: about time we started thinking: how -- strategically, legally and from a policy perspective -- can Hindu institutions be strengthened to match christist convents or islamist madrassas.For instance what legal changes are required to make Hindu temples free to start their own high quality schools.
And who can take this forward? BJP? NDA? Someone else?
To continue with OBC-Brahmin debate, pl note that aggressors have used the differences very well. They use the 'mind' skills of some Brahmins (whom they entice and employ) to confuse and provoke OBC's against Brahmins in general. In turn, they engage the help of disgruntled OBC's to physically attack brahmins. Brahmins are poor at fighting it out physically; and OBC's are unable to appreciate that Brahmins have been useful to the society in general, and that a society without brahmins will necessarily be a much harsher society for everyone (In the din of opinions on reservations, has anyone stopped to think about the cost of medical services to poor people? There was a time when (at least ome of) those without much cash could simply leave their kith and kin in the hands of a competent doctor and not worry about money..and most of these doctors would be Brahmins. It was the same with teachers.)
The essence of caste system is that each single caste is incomplete and inadequate. A single caste cannot sustain the society. Equally, the absence of any single caste is lethal to the society. Hindu minus Brahmin =0; Hindu minus OBC=0; Hindu minus Warrior castes =0; Hindu minus trader castes=0; Of course we must use the benefits of modern technology and sanitation practices. Shudra caste/s, untouchability etc. are dated ideas; and they must be formally declarerd as null and void. Tirupati/Sankaracharyas can help there, but they are pretty much blind to the decay of Hindu society. That is the real problem.
"The essence of caste system is that each single caste is incomplete and inadequate. A single caste cannot sustain the society."
---IamforD,
What a sea change! I once wrote here that "I wish you could see that the 4-fold division mentioned in the Gita was for the purpose of serving the whole society...". You jumped backed saying "Enough of this starry-eyed idealism". !:-)
You are now saying the same thing I wrote, in a different way. :-)
Just writing this because I just happened to remember the comment, no offence meant.
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Rajeev,
surprising that you are talking like those Dravdian leaders from TamiZ land, bashing Brahmins. You got carried away by those OBC reservations I think. Remember that in every development that India had Brahmins were at the forefront. Let it be IT or any other field. There are Brahmins who contributed to the knowledge revolution. I remember you said once that you respect Brahmins because they carried the ancient treasure for centuries. Still today we can proudly talk about our vedic culture...who made it possible? who made the Vedas etc still survive today?
There were more Brahmins in freedom struggle than any others. The present generation Bengalis are leftist and they are so called "Brahmins". does that mean you can generalise that Brahmins are not patriotic? then what about Keralites? Kerala is majorly Christist? does that mean I go and generalise that Keralites are all anti Hindus and anti Nationals? All those who stay in India are not patriotic and all those who go abraod are not un-patriotic. For that matter you chose to live in US. Does that make you any less patriotic? The case of Tamiz brahmins is completely differnt. They were tortured like hell in the time of "periyar" movement. Their sacred threads were torn and they were driven out of tamiz nadu.
That was a disappointing post from you !!!
These days, if you wish to get one's point across, it is important to begin with a liberal brahmin bashing. You got no chance otherwise. There is little risk in brahmin bashing. Any other approach is much inferior. I am not surprised Rajeev uses the trick. It doesn't really reflect badly on him, nor does it reflect badly on brahmins. His approach is in tune with this time. Kalaay tasmai namaha.
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