jun 26, 2006
what, ICHR says 'aryan' invasion theory is bunkum?
generally the ICHR is the mouthpiece of the 'eminent historians'. or is that the indian history congress, whose star speaker a couple of years ago was (drum roll) amartya sen, who has no qualification whatsoever in history?
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From: Swami
Date: Jun 26, 2006 1:10 AM
Subject: Death throes of Aryan Invasion theory?
To: Undisclosed-Recipient
Monday, June 26, 2006
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56 comments:
We cover achievements of our favorite Indologists on our blog. Stop by anytime.
http://irffanclub.blogspot.com/
our history books say aryans arrived 3500 years ago. when did it change to 15000? the older it is the more difficult it is to gather evidence.
The ICHR historian or the Newspaper which reported him have added just a 'zero' more to the supposed date of Aryans coming !
What has happened to the Conference at Massachusetts?
Is the absurd thesis of that mystical Invasion buried for good -never to see the pages of our history books again?
Arre, apni heroine "Romila Thappad" kaa kya hoga. Bichari. Uski bachpan kee kaamnayen poori nahi hongi. sob sob..
Nice one Rajeev. To hell with Aryan invasion. Please make the Aryan tourist theory a reality. :)
I read the following in Hindustan Times dated Saturday, 17 June, 2006:
Pak peace paltan
“Farhana Eijaz. One of her best songs, sung for HT, was in Brahui, a dialect spoken in the Brahui Hills of Baluchistan. It was exactly like a kavadi chindu (folk song) of Tamil Nadu. But then, Brahui and Tamil share many common words.”
Brahui is considered to be a “Dravidian” language.
I also remember reading a long time (35 y?) back, probably in The Hindu, that the words in some archeological inscriptions found in the Mohenjadaro – Harappa site were closely similar to Tamil. What sticks in my memory is that personal names had the vowel “e” prefixed, like in Eravanan, which is the literary Tamil name for the North Indian Ravan. Also relevant may be the fact that one of the characters in Mahabharata, Iravan, was the son of Arjuna by Uloopi, a Naga princess. If there is a history scholar subscribing to this blog, I wish he/she would throw more light on Brahui and related matters.
I searched the Internet for more information on Brahui, but the results I got were extremely confusing, because most of the writers were going with the preconceived notion that “Aryan Invasion” was a fact.
Apart from hardcore Hindutvavaadis, almost no one thinks the Aryan migration theory is about race - it's about language. That there are the Indo-European languages as well as Dravidian languages is not even up for dispute, and the linguistic and archaeological evidence for a group of indo-european speakers migrating into the punjab is quite strong.
Frankly, the only people making a race based political issue out of this stupid Hindutva goons and the equally idiotic Dravidian chauvinists.
Kingsley,
Have you ever seen cherubic face of Amartya Sen ever getting screwed up at the opposition to Aryan dravidian stuff ?
Indeed the secularists, and the colonial slaves have made a lot of capital out of this race. The Dravidian movement that you see had throwing out colonialists. Everything here is about Race, the secular mafia just don't tell these to innocent people like you, who are offended by race. But how can you whitewash this great enterprise from race ? You want some references to race by secular mafia ? Do you want historical reference by the imperialists ?Please do some introspection.
The racists ideas are only supplemented by linguistics, and that too is fraud. Supposing there is a dravidian language, or a scottish language Vs english language ( if such a difference exists), then do you make such a hue and cry ?
Are you sure you are not tainted by racism ? Or merely speaking because of affiliation with the mafia ?
BTW ATT as trademarked by Nizhal under a GNU license (?) is more about tourists, sex and beer. This is different than the standard racists descriptions which you refuse to read.
Frankly, the only people making a race based political issue out of this stupid Hindutva goons and the equally idiotic Dravidian chauvinists.
The whole AIT hoax had a religious-politico objective to begin with -- linguistic co-relation was the means to achieve objective. The objective was "divide and conquer" to further the aims of global white christist hegemons!
While the so called "Hidutva goons" are fighting against this ongoing religious-politico crime (we have proxies today who are ably supporting thier white masters) and for thier trampled rights, the Dravidian anti-nationals are simply perpetuating the colonial crime, for thier personal and political ambitions! The Dravidian parties have thier origins in the "Justice Party" which was anit-national and pro-British!
So, Kingsley, your equation is not fair!
Arre, apni heroine "Romila Thappad" kaa kya hoga. Bichari. Uski bachpan kee kaamnayen poori nahi hongi. sob sob..
Darkstorm,
Romilla Thappads have understood their folly since last 7-8 years or so, thats why they were fuming sio much at the saffronization, instead of discussing the issue.
What they have is a migration which has less fireworks in fiction, but they already have a culture to foist political deception. So Thappad mata loses nothing. As such she is being acknowledged by white people in DC, and she mayn't expect any more.
Cacoethes,
Brahui is considered to be a “Dravidian” language., further Harappa site were closely similar to Tamil. What sticks in my memory is that personal names had the vowel “e” prefixed, like in Eravanan,
Thanks for the observations. Supposing these could be the only observation, then the implication is tamil has simillarities with Brahui. How nice an observation that would be ! However we got a mess, as you mention, addition of a letter 'a' or 'e' here and there means much larger into race wars, politics and so forth. BTW linguistics was highly devloped then, each pronounciation and word was analyzed with its meaning ( meaning not for finding divisions). So that is another aspect to look into.
Kingsley,
About the Hindutva Goons comment - Why do you get your panties in a knot over some silly blog in some corner of the Internet? By the way your "cultured" and "sophisticated" elites got 20 million Muslims into Europe - by the time this is over we will all see how civilized your European pals will remain once Islam gets through with them.
"the linguistic and archaeological evidence for a group of indo-european speakers MIGRATING into the punjab is quite strong."
Ooo La La - the invasion already turned into a Migration Have you farts noted that people migrate FROM FROM FROM poor and backward countries TO TO TO richer and more sophisticated countries?
If you have any evidence why don't you present it yourself out here?
Since you get all twisted around the concept of "race" you must be a white boy sweetheart.
"almost no one thinks the Aryan migration theory is about race - it's about language" - No AHole go read Max Mueller the guy who cooked up the Aryan Invasion Theory - Maybe you know more than the person who wrote the theory.
How convenient when the genetic evidence blows up in your face you suddenly turn around and claim it was a "MIGRATION" theory - Were you an advisor to Bush constructing one of the 30 - 40 constantly changing reasons for invading Iraq?
Everything here is about Race, the secular mafia just don't tell these to innocent people like you, who are offended by race.
Looks like Kingsley already knows about the migration stuff. No so much innocence after all, Religiously secular propaganda has mortified him .
"About the Hindutva Goons comment - Why do you get your panties in a knot over some silly blog in some corner of the Internet?"
I don't, and I will not humor you by responding to an even sillier comment in an even smaller corner of the whatchamacallit.
Kingsley - a little something for you from your civilized Europe
“Youths” Kick Man to Death on Crowded Antwerp Bus
Two "males" charged for terror plots in Britain
Most of you guys cannot debate by showing evidence , making coherent arguments - just name calling/intimidation/waving your elite status
Maybe you deserve what is happening in Europe to your elitist socities - I am very sure that you are "european" - that is an insult in America by the way.
and I will not humor you by responding to an even sillier comment in an even smaller corner of the whatchamacallit.
However, how to avoid humour even before the mafia of larger places is too serious a matter. Is Kingsley ready for it ?
virat0: I have read the racist descriptions and they are idiotic. All I'm asking is, don't bring your hindutva "everything started in India" ideas into history just like the European imperialists brought their racist ideas. History with an agenda sucks, regardless of what the agenda is.
"The whole AIT hoax had a religious-politico objective to begin with" - absolutely true. But it's no longer a widely held idea in scholarly circles (even the "famous" Romila Thapar) since atleast the last ten years. The stupid hindutva goons are still flogging this dead horse, while the stupid Dravidian chauvinists are trying to resurrect it in some form or the other.
Also, just because my name is Kingsley doesn't mean I'm from Europe. Just like how we're both speaking in English but probably don't belong to an "English Race", an idea that seems difficult for this group to understand. Well, that's my last, i guess I'm about to be called sevral names shortly, so atleast try to make it appropriate: I'm atheist (not Christian, yuck), Indian by birth and brought up in various small towns in South India (yes, that obviously means I have a biased agenda, because being born in the north means you don't) for 26 fucking years, thank you very much. I have always thought the whole concept of "race" was stupid, because the genetic markers that create what we call race are very, very diverse. Thank you, and good day.
virat0: I have read the racist descriptions and they are idiotic. All I'm asking is, don't bring your hindutva "everything started in India"
Kingsley,
If there is a discussion, and there is a view, you can refute it. Having said that, the 'everything..' stuff was not being mentioned here. One should be able to discuss and provide a counter view to disagreement.
I agree that the race is stupid, even if the genetic markers are proved to be uniform. Why ? See, when 'genetic markers' are diverse, still race existed. So something else must be at work here, than a couple of genes or flesh or bones. The change to migration from an invasion or the worst forms ( I am not sure if you have read these worst forms) mayn't have changed the other factor that is at work here. Isn't it frustrating that a mafia still espouses these ? [ It is not your hindutwavadis, as even you mention of the migration stuff]. I think it could be the case that Indians would be perfectly happy to have an option to explore the logic and beauty of old linguistics, a subject which is not existing anymore as a philosophy.
"The whole AIT hoax had a religious-politico objective to begin with" - absolutely true. But it's no longer a widely held idea in scholarly circles (even the "famous" Romila Thapar) since at least the last ten years.
---- Here is a Romila Thapar link from recent past (under 10 years) which I had in my archives. It is clear she is stuck at "information available at the time of independence" and refuses to take any information that came in after that.
http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/feb/04thapar.htm
She says:
"When one talks about history, one talks about it at two levels. One is information which has to be accurate, and the other is interpretation of that information which is where different schools of history come into play. At the time of Independence, the information that we had on our past was accurate....."
Wow Romila, information got frozen in 1947. Even after we entered information age, no new information came and even if it come one should not look at it!
I am assuming that someone who made such an illogical statement as she has, could not have suddenly turned logical, even in the 8 years that have elapsed since then.
_
absolutely true. But it's no longer a widely held idea in scholarly circles (even the "famous" Romila Thapar) since atleast the last ten years.
Kingsley,
To anser the above : You too say that race is stupid. But it existed effectively. How something that din't exist in reality could be such a potent idea is a different issue. In relation to Thappads, they have their theories built upon the race thing to create nuisance and for controll. It really doesn't matter to anybody if I say that I got an extrabone than him. What matters is something else, and Thappers have few more theories devloped on top aryan dravidian stuff. One of its usage to misrepresent hinduism. When they arbitrarily changed the invasion idea, they didn't give up the fundamental idea of race as construct that everybody should subscribe to. They didn't make it an open field where we could also question the very idea of constructs itself to evaluate its importance. Unless you question them openly and have an open debate, a lot of old India wouldn't be understood. The migration of races is so convenient that they don't have to change any of the theories build upon the invading race theory. All we get out of this change is bit less flame, what they controll for us is significant.
yo 'kingsley', for a moment i got confused because my good friend julia kingsley, a brit, is a lurker on this blog (yes, even this insignificant little corner of the net has lurkers and yes, oddly enough, i do have brit friends. generally women, as brit men are total horses' asses without exception).
but julia would never say anything as silly as you did.
nobody is interested in the gory details of your biography. only your ideas and facts count. and on that score, you, how can i put this delicately, stink?
there is absolutely no archaeological evidence whatsoever of any 'migration'. (anyway, how do you show 'evidence' of 'migration'? the eminent donkeys tried for years to show 'evidence' of 'invasion' and gave up since there just ain't any.) all the archaeological evidence shows a remarkable continuity of civilization with no break whatsoever.
this supports my TM 'aryan' 'tourist' theory: if anybody came, they left as little evidence as tourists do.
don't just assert things because that's what you'd like. the linguistic evidence is mostly ambiguous: it could equally well apply to an out-migration of indians.
the 'evidence' for 'aryan' 'migration' is about as good as the 'evidence' for 'st' thomas coming to india: truth by repeated assertion.
Rajeev,
You forgot to mention the dubious theory/study called philology based on which this “linguistic evidence” is provided.
http://daily.stanford.edu/daily/servlet/tempo?page=content&id=19590&repository=0001_article
Oppose creationism
An issue has been quietly brewing in California regarding the contents of school textbooks. In the past few months, there have been repeated clashes between scientists and creationists in Sacramento’s corridors of power, which are likely to spill over into the mainstream. In particular, creationists have managed to influence decisions made by California’s State Board of Education.
It is well known that proponents of biblical creationism object to scientific ideas like evolution and regularly clamor for equal treatment of their beliefs in school textbooks.
In the scientific method, one makes observations and comes up with a hypothesis that makes accurate predictions. The results obtained by the scientific method are repeatable and the hypotheses themselves are potentially falsifiable by new evidence. On the other hand, pseudo-scientific theories make assumptions that can neither be proved nor disproved, but are taken as truth. They do not follow the rules of logic, discard scientific evidence and are based on faith.
A field that qualifies as a pseudo-science and is based on creationism is philology, which was developed in the 19th century. By cloaking its arguments in academic language and claiming to reconstruct human history by analyzing the roots of words in various languages, it passes off biblical descriptions as historical events. One of the pioneers of philology, Max Muller, was a self-admitted believer in the historical foundation of the description given in Genesis and asserted that “we still speak the language of the first ancestors of our race.” He went so far as to write to Charles Darwin that evolution is false because the languages of animals do not resemble those of humans.
Although today’s scientists do not consider philology to be a legitimate science, believers in the literal interpretation of the Bible insist on using philology to promote their views. One such view, which has been repeatedly discredited by science, but is still being pushed for inclusion in California’s textbooks without mentioning its biblical aspects, is a theory known as the Aryan Migration Theory. According to this theory, descendants of the biblical character Japheth invaded India after the deluge and populated it. Inclusion of this theory in school textbooks would indirectly give sanction to creationism and open the doors for future frontal assaults on science.
A recent paper co-authored by Peter Underhill in our Genetics Department analyzed genetic evidence and concluded that there is no such thing as Aryan migration into India. This is consistent with evidence from other fields such as carbon dating, fossil studies, archaeology, geophysics, linguistics, metallurgy and satellite imaging. However, in a letter to the California State Board of Education, Vinay Lal — a humanities professor at UCLA and believer in philology — dismisses such scientific conclusions as “palpable falsehoods” and “alleged evidence of some unknown geneticist.” He avers that science has no role to play in overturning “the long established view on this matter.”
It is incumbent upon us at Stanford to stand up for science and oppose creationism. We should do our part to help California public schools improve their ranking, which is almost the lowest in the country.
J. Sreedhar is a research scholar at Stanford University. He can be reached at jsreedhar@gmail.com.
Rajeev/Nizhal Yoddha/Mohanlal's Yoddha,
Can you point to one article where Romila Thapar has said Aryans are a race?
Vamanan,
Hope you were not paid by emminent Thappads as an RA when searching for a job. These kind of apology doesn't work . These thappads recieved huge salaries to use their tiny brains to copy from some discarded european racists ideas, okay ? So as a thumb rule don't spent much time when you know the meaning in european context.
virat0,
I asked the question to Rajeev. I really don't care what you think.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaArchaeology/message/3621
The simplistic and unnuanced invasionary model was already
questioned long ago and finally widely rejected by Western
academia, although not, as the opposition would like us
to believe, as a result of Indian activists rallying and
forcing the issue, but rather as a result of internal debate
and discussion. Of course, regrettably, outside of a core
of up-to-date Indologists, and linguists devoted to Indian
languages, one can still find in sources citations of an
Aryan invasion. Neither has news of the theory's death
reached such circles as those of the neo-Nazis and white
supremacists, Tamil or Dravidian separatists, or some anti-
Hindu Islamist or Dalit groups, and as such it remains a
feature of their propaganda. But then of course neither
would it be advantageous for such groups to acknowledge the
shift even should they become aware of it, having already
built so many of their arguments around it.
Now while the invasionary model has been widely rejected,
it is still held that the Indo-Aryan languages, among a
number of other cultural features of the Vedic people,
could not have arisen within India. That being the case,
the only question is one of how and when those cultural
features diffused from the steppes of Central Asia to the
Indian subcontinent. The group of various modern theories
offered in way of explanation in lieu of invasion are what
are often referred to as the "A(ryan)M(igration)T(heory)".
Now of course to those Indians who find the Aryan invasion
theory so objectionable on nationalistic, ethnocentric, or
religious grounds, an Aryan migration theory (at least one
of Aryans immigrating from outside India) is going to be no
less objectionable (which of course is not to imply that
all skeptics of such theories are necessarily nationalists,
ethnocentric, or religious fundamentalists). Therefore a
number of the less honest, or just simply less rational,
members of the opposition have added to their propaganda the
claim that A.M.T. is no different from A.I.T. and is thus
conveniently dead along with it.
However, as Koenraad Elst has noted, no matter how well this
"news" may be received in some circles, they are fooling only
themselves, for Western academia has not altered its view on
the matter, indeed it has been given no valid reason to alter
its view on the matter.
So to answer your question, Venkitesh, no, Witzel does not
espouse a simplistic invasionary model, but he does indeed
believe that the Indo-Aryan language group came into India
from outside, and at a rather late date compared to many
other theories. It is really just this fact, along with the
academic stature he brings with him to the argument, and
nothing else, that has earned him the hatred of so many of
those Hindus for whom such ideas are anathema.
"The simplistic and unnuanced invasionary model was already
questioned long ago and finally widely rejected by Western
academia"
Questions
1. How long ago?
2. When did the AIT get written and when was it finally rejected - approx dates please?
3. How many decades / centuries does it take the superior massahs to come to this conclusion?
vamanan - do not worry - us eeeeevvvillll Hindutva goons will discredit the migration theory too. Good Luck believing Romilla Thappad and the AMT - my precious AMT .
"it is still held that the Indo-Aryan languages, among a
number of other cultural features of the Vedic people,
could NOT have arisen within India." - PROOF PROOF EVIDENCE EVIDENCE??????
Similarly I feel that you could not have dropped out of your mamas...--anybody can believe anything no proofs or evidence reqd.
By the way the Finnish and Estonian languages are completely different from the "Indo-European" (I am surprised these worthies managed to put the word Indo in there - we are very grateful massah - yes massah) languages - not from the same root at all - no connection at all. This obviously implies that the Finns and Estonians are a different "race" right? In fact they are not even whites - psst. psst. they actually have purple colored dicks.
ik,
All I asked was a simple question - where did Romila Thapar say she believes in AIT.
If you don't know the answer, say so. Calling names basically shows your ignorance, nothing more.
I don't know the answer either as I am also trying to learn.
I like to learn from people who comment seriously and not insult people. If you have some links for me do provide. Calling Romila Thapar as Thapad just shows what a sad upbringing your parents did for you.
Write serious articles quoting research papers and archaeological discoveries. Present a convincing argument. Ignore people like Thapar and Witzel. I linked to the above post since I saw somethign which is different. Please show me facts which oppose it. I really want to read it.
All people here are obsessed in calling names which is not a sign of serious scholarship. See the bigger picture and work towards it and get over this myspace.com kid mentality.
Dear Folks (except vamanan),
Vamanan Avatar has a right to call people names such as "Mohanlal Yoddha" (and it does not reflect on his upbringing, since He is an Avatar). And in return for being rude he expects the data/info he is seeking.
Also, no one else should do any name-calling to him in return.
If vamanan replies to this, or any mutation of him replies, I really dont care.
_
daisies,
Thanks for letting me know that you know nothing about Aryan Invasion Theory. Next please.
vamanan
for unbelievably narcissistic creature like you I can think of only one way to respond…. just like the honourable Cheney said on the floor of the senate – go fuck yourself.
siva,
It is ok if you dont understand this discussion. No need to get upset.
siva,
thanks for the word narcisstic. yes that's what best describes this character. long time since i used that word.
and it also reveals his upbringing. his parents gave him whatever he asked for even if he was rude. thus he grew up a spoiled brat and expects people to give him what he wants even if he was rude.
Also, his assumption that people are not knowledge if they arent answering him shows how illogical he is, just like the Witzel he so admires. Historians who cooked up fantasies (ait, then amt) and defendeded them as solid Truth, even in the face of counter- evidence.
_
May I suggest vamanan read Romila Thapar's Early India : From the Origins to AD 1300.
Has anyone here read B. R. Ambedkar's Who were the Shudras? wherein one may find a good argument demolishing the Aryan Invasion Theory.
Suggest starting with Chapter IV - Shudras Versus Aryans.
Thanks Shahryar. Finally some use of staying here.
daisies,
thanks for the word narcisstic. yes that's what best describes this character. long time since i used that word.
When was the last time you used it? Historians would be curious.
and it also reveals his upbringing. his parents gave him whatever he asked for even if he was rude. thus he grew up a spoiled brat and expects people to give him what he wants even if he was rude.you seem to be an astrologer. is my rahu and ketu meeting budhan and shukran today? will i be rich? pray tell.
Also, his assumption that people are not knowledge if they arent answering him shows how illogical he is, just like the Witzel he so admires. Historians who cooked up fantasies (ait, then amt) and defendeded them as solid Truth, even in the face of counter- evidence.
I just assumed one thing - you are ignorant about history. hehehe how did you come up with stuff like I admire Wietzel. Atstrology perhaps.
vamanan posted some comments about me at the other post but it looks like further comments are not going through there. so I am posting my response here, although this isnt where i want to post my response.
------------------------------
"thanks for the word narcisstic. yes that's what best describes this character. long time since i used that word."
[When was the last time you used it? Historians would be curious].
--- Like I am obligated to answer rude people.
"and it also reveals his upbringing. his parents gave him whatever he asked for even if he was rude. thus he grew up a spoiled brat and expects people to give him what he wants even if he was rude."
[you seem to be an astrologer. is my rahu and ketu meeting budhan and shukran today? will i be rich? pray tell].
--- scientist my boy, scientist.
astrologer is you. I am a scientist. your behaviour (which is, I repeat for nth time, "Rude Person Asking for Answers And Expecting Them" + "Rudely Commenting on Others Upbringing"), shows me Your Upbringing.
"Also, his assumption that people are not knowledge if they arent answering him shows how illogical he is, just like the Witzel he so admires. Historians who cooked up fantasies (ait, then amt) and defendeded them as solid Truth, even in the face of counter- evidence."
[I just assumed one thing - you are ignorant about history. hehehe how did you come up with stuff like I admire Wietzel. Atstrology perhaps].
--- I hoped you would point this one out, my boy. It was really an irritant for you, wasnt it ?
My boy, If you are entitled to ridiculous assumptions about me, I AM entitled to the SAME about you.
Grow up little Avatar. If you are rude to X, expect X to be rude to you. If you say ridiculous things about me, expect me to say something ridiculous about you.
ALSO, REALISE, THAT IF WESTERN HISTORIANS HAVE SOME DIVINE RIGHT TO CREATE OUR HISTORY, BY FANTASY, OUT OF VERY SPARSE EVIDENCE, WE HAVE A GREATER DIVINE RIGHT TO CREATE OUR THEORIES, BASED ON NEW EVIDENCE!!!! AND AT LEAST WE ARE NOT GOING AGAINST THE EVIDENCE, AND HENCE, IN OUR FANTASIES< WE ARE STILL MAINTAINING INTEGRITY!!!!
Outgrow the pampering your parents gave you when you were a kid, making you think you are the center of the universe, and the galaxies revolve around you and must do your bidding.
_
--- Like I am obligated to answer rude people.
...and you don't get sarcasm do you?
--- scientist my boy, scientist.
astrologer is you. I am a scientist. your behaviour (which is, I repeat for nth time, "Rude Person Asking for Answers And Expecting Them" + "Rudely Commenting on Others Upbringing"), shows me Your Upbringing.
Oh you are a scientist. I am on the floor laughing...If you are a scientist, then I am Albert Einstein.
--- I hoped you would point this one out, my boy. It was really an irritant for you, wasnt it ?
Son, it does not irritate me. I was curious on your "scientific" deduction. Where did you learn "science" - Murali Manohar Joshi Institute of Astrology?
My boy, If you are entitled to ridiculous assumptions about me, I AM entitled to the SAME about you.
No you are not.
Grow up little Avatar. If you are rude to X, expect X to be rude to you. If you say ridiculous things about me, expect me to say something ridiculous about you.
Son, I asked you a question and you started wetting your panties for this.
ALSO, REALISE, THAT IF WESTERN HISTORIANS HAVE SOME DIVINE RIGHT TO CREATE OUR HISTORY, BY FANTASY, OUT OF VERY SPARSE EVIDENCE, WE HAVE A GREATER DIVINE RIGHT TO CREATE OUR THEORIES, BASED ON NEW EVIDENCE!!!! AND AT LEAST WE ARE NOT GOING AGAINST THE EVIDENCE, AND HENCE, IN OUR FANTASIES< WE ARE STILL MAINTAINING INTEGRITY!!!!
OH DIVINE RIGHT. JUST LIKE HOW GEORGE BUSH JUSTIFIED THE WAR. DID GOD TALK TO YOU DIRECTLY AND TELL YOU ALL THE EVIDENCE. RAJEEV, NOR ANYONE HERE HAS ANY INTEGRITY. I HAVE NOT SEEN YOU NOT ANYONE PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE OTHER THAN REPEATING THE SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN. ALSO WRITING IN UPPER CASE DOES NOT MAKE YOUR "IMAGINARY" THEORIES ACCEPTABLE.
Outgrow the pampering your parents gave you when you were a kid, making you think you are the center of the universe, and the galaxies revolve around you and must do your bidding.Like I am obligated to listen to rude people.
Oh you are a scientist. I am on the floor laughing...If you are a scientist, then I am Albert Einstein.
-- Little boy, your definition of scientist obviously is different from mine. Your definition perhaps means only "known famous minds on whom awards and honors have been conferred". That is why you are so stuck with famous people's theories and cannot accept anything from an unknown person.
I will not be reading the reast of your post.
You are better off spending your time on famous people's blogs.
This one is for the common man.
_
And the common woman.
Celebrities dont come here. You have nothing to learn from the commoners here.
And my guess is the commoners here are not ineterested in learning from you either, because of your attitude problem.
_
hey scientist,
go and learn something about indian history and come back when you have some knowledge to contribute.
vamanan,
i do not use your definitions of "scientist", "historian" to be on this blog.
neither does anybody. not even the blog-owner.
make your own blog and invite everyone here to come there. see how many actually want to be on your team.
_
dr. daisies,
i do not use your definitions of "scientist", "historian" to be on this blog.
hehehe yes sir, "scientist"... still laughing...
neither does anybody. not even the blog-owner.
did you ask Rajeev?
make your own blog and invite everyone here to come there. see how many actually want to be on your team.
I am not interested in all these my son.
daisies,
you said you will not read rest of my comments, but seems like you are....
sweetheart, i meant the rest of your comments in that long post.
one-liners make my job easy.
_
"neither does anybody. not even the blog-owner".
did you ask Rajeev?
--- Little Boy, you are STILL asking me questions ?
Havent you learned by now that I dont answer questions from rude people ?
Of course, you can continue to ridicule me and laugh at me. That's OK. Having said the important things, I have better things to do with my Sunday and my bytes than read your posts on Daisies.
_
Vamanan,
Even a cursory google query "Romila Thapar Aryan Invasion Theory" will give you all the links you need to get info.
The fact is you came here not to get info but with an agenda - when you got caught you put on an air of injured innocence - this is an act - nobody is fooled by this.
Marxist/Commie thugs have killed a 100 million people in 80 years - but if someone uses harsh language against them they whine about how it hurt their "feelings" - so those 100 million people who were killed - apparently they were exterminated without causing any hurt right?
This stupid AIT/AMT garbage is peddled only by Marxists in India - nobody nobody nobody else get it you POS.
About a thousand years ago the Normans invaded England (REAL invasion) - nobody in England goes around saying look look tht guy has "Norman features" and that guy has "Saxon features" because everything got mixed up over time (since both groups were whites). But this AIT/AMT crap supposedly happened 3500 years ago but you guys still go around saying look look that guy has "dravidian features" - Congratulations you guys have managed to spread the poison of racial hatred in a society where you cannot physically distinguish between people since everyone has brown skin /black hair and black/brown eyes - This is probably a worldwide first.
The simple fact is that all the Marxist garbage like Romila Thappad and her eminent distorians gang need to be dragged through the streets and executed to death live on National TV like they did to the Ceauscescu family in Romania (shot to death on National TV) - even then you guys will be getting away toooo lightly for all the damage you have done to Indian society.
By the way are the Buddhists and Jains in India Aryans or Dravidians. The Jains have 23 other Tirthankaras before Mahavir in a sequential order (thus going right past the AIT date) and none of them are from Inner Mongolia.
Since we are not journalists/historians/OtherIdleIdiots we do not have the time to sit around arguing with people like you - In fact I cannot believe I sat down writing the stuff above and spent so much time - just some Gaaalis should do for anybody who spouts ridiculous garbage like AIT/AMT.
about my comment above - about shooting you guys on National TV - I was just expressing my hurt "feelings" - I do not advocate violence.
ik,
My question was
"Can you point to one article where Romila Thapar has said Aryans are a race?"
and you peddle something about Marxists, Vikings and what not. You call me a man with an agenda. you did everything except answer the question. The answer I expect would be a link, a reference to an article in a book or a book itself. (I have started reading Early India thanks to Shahryar)
Hey, why are you so afraid when someone asks a question. Why are you so defensive. What are you scared of? Why don't you counter people with facts? Why do you think everyone who asks a question is Marxist or a member of opposition. Should I assume that you know nothing and that is why you are so defensive.
If you have anything to contribute, try to answer this post
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndiaArchaeology/message/3627
I bet neither you nor Rajeev has any facts to counter this message.
do visit my blog at
http://vamanan123.blogspot.com/
I asked the question to Rajeev. I really don't care what you think.
Vamanan,
Thats alright, one mayn't be looking or your care either?
"The simplistic and unnuanced invasionary model was already
questioned long ago and finally widely rejected by Western
academia"
One has to be an idiot to say that the racist model of subjugation and plunder is all about simplistic. WHy did the 'western academia', which is presented as a ghetto that is able to debate on India, created this at forst place ? Why did they recruot Indian agents ?
Initially you wrote :
Can you point to one article where Romila Thapar has said Aryans are a race?
About articles, thapper mata appears like a sardar , her minions manage interviews for the subjects. One reference to a book is already provided in one post above.
That asides,
Post a standard history book that doesn't consider or use the word Aryan as race. I checked 4/5 and none refuted the british idea of race, and accept it as a primary construct. That leads to the conclusion that all these neheruvian historians who pay obeisance to thapper saheb ( brown), do so to get a job, and agter all they need to have a way of earning, even if it denigrates theor mother land and its heritage.
FYO : These days Thapper Saheb ( brown) may have read a book on Deridda's subject, but don't be a fool to be mislead by these brokers.
Sorry for the typos in above post.
Vamanan, I read you comment that you started reading the reference. there is not much literature existing in humanities that doesn't brainwash you in terms of western hegimony. Most of it subscribed to races, though there are books by western people who have questioned it. So most of the mainstream humanity books should merely be an attempt to interpret hindu darshana by race ideas. If you find any good book that tears such ideas apart, then please post it here.
I challenge an AMT or AIT supporter to even quote one set of consistent historical evidences which clearly proves that
1. Vedas were composed outside India.
2. That Vedas were introduced in India by foreigners to region between Indus-Ganges
3. That any of the recognized sects of brahmins either converted to a foreign vedic sanskritic religion or were descendants of foreign immigrants to India between 5000 BC to 1900 AD.
4. That vedas describe in unambigous terms that its bards were a nomadic or a moving tribe.
5. That a foreign religion was forcibly imposed on any of the hindus prior to 1 Century AD.
No word play and indirect evidence accepted
If some one can identify a literary or archeological or genetic evidence to support the same in no vague terms- then its worth giving some attention to the aryan theory.
Fact is there are none- all of these theories are based on mere speculations without anything to back them up.
I dont have to be harvard professor, to understand the evidence- Because any educated individual can understand the proof of pythagoros theorem.Full stop.
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