A Hindu Nationalist Perspective
I think reservations should exist in the form of bursaries, grants, etc. But not in terms of bypassing meritocracy. Would you like to be operated upon by a brainsurgeon who only got his qualification/certification due to an ethnic quota, or something unrelated to actual skills and abilities?
Rajeev, I second san. Ok, lets accept there should be reservations. But 50% !!??? Isnt that too much. AFAIK, its as high as 69% in states like Tamilnadu and UP.Do you think India can grow if we continue with such policies. Not to say that there is no merit amongst the so called SC ST and OBC. There is merit in them. But then, economic help would suffice. In fact, if a deserving candidate comes in through reservation, he would actually be labelled as a quota candidate and considered not-upto-the-mark like other quota candidates.
Since minority owned institutes won't come under mandal II, the talent will now start shifting to these institutes. Not to mention about money. So Christain and Muslim education institutes that are already cash rich will further fatten their bank accounts. The "Hindu" institutes over the period of time will cave in.Not sure if UPA proposes the same logic when bringing in reservations in Private sector. So in that case companies like Wipro,TATA and Wockhardt that have muslim/parsi owners would be saved i believe! And Infosys, Bajaj, Reliance will bear the brunt.And what about foreign/NRI owned companies like CTS, Kanbay etc? Will they too be subjected to reservations?Also i do not understand the logic of giving reservations at every step. So we have reservations for XIIth, then again reservation for Engineering/IIT/Medical then again reservation for jobs.Why make the poor OBC guy go through all the trouble. Why not directly give him job at the age of 21 , which is anyway assured? Why the formality of making him go through all these steps.
Also i do not understand the logic of giving reservations at every step. So we have reservations for XIIth, then again reservation for Engineering/IIT/Medical then again reservation for jobs.I think the above doesn't not the complete chain- and the reservation for in-job promotions are not the missing link. Rather it is to create a secondary feedback loop, to sustain this reservation structure by getting votes. The logic of this secondary structure has nothing to with wealth, for had it been abt wealth, the neheruvian penalty would have been trashed since long, and India would have been like South Korea. The secondary structure that exist on its own and can't be denied is useful for different purpose. Some would get jobs, some wouldn't get - however they adjust among themselves, and content with getting jobs. To defend their cause, now they have to find reasons, no such compelling reasons exists asides the ones that spawned this secondary loop at first place. important are analysis based on race,marx, and semi religious arguments that justified british occupation of India. You can't see the face of two persons from different castes spending considerable time in delhi and say that one did better just because a historian has presumed that one's ancestors are crooks. Simillarly you can't pick up a person cleaning toilets and make him the PM, because another person cleaning toilets in another place is called a toilet cleaner too, and none in the toilet cleaner class are PMs. So the arguments mostly are the ones that spawned this secondary loop itself. - Analysis of race, applying marx, semi-religious ideas with bad mouthing .... Thus the primary ideas that is dear to everybody hostile to hindu civillization has people to propagate it among themselves. This is so nice, the primary ideas created a secondary loop, and the secondary loop feeds to the primary purpose. The primary loop is complete. The usual sermons and attacks of the secularists is not the rational of the loops, it is their rational to make the loop stronger.
Just wanted to add that, money is not directly useful for the success of primary loop. You can't go in qith a billion dollars and ask the europeans to create naxalite movement among themselves. Even there are cultural issues when Mittal buys a steel plant. Further the end couldn't be in this situation, if it progress in an ideal world, then these will multiply.
I have a post on "Minority status for Brahmins" on my blog, for those interested
The Minnesota Temple Vandals are caughthttp://kstp.com/kstpimages/hinducharges.pdfhttp://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S16214.html?cat=1
One reason why the secular cartels can operate with success is the complete lack of a deterrent. Just imagine - where does Arjun Singh or a VP Singh and his family turn to when they need solace? Will a church or a mosque provide them that solace? Unfortunately, there is no Hindu body that can say something siginificant in this matter. Undeniably, Arjun Singh is working towards destroying Hindu religion, but the Hindu religion does not have any leverage whatsoever that it can use to deter an Arjun Singh (or a Lalu who gleefully declares that Hindus died of their own will in Godhra).The truth is Hindu religion has not kept pace with modern times. It might have been a good religion at some time, but sadly, it is not doing its core job of supporting the society in a meaningful way. I cannot think of a Muslim or a Christain working so openly against his own religion. Do you guys agree or do you think Hindus do have some collective clout even today?
(quote)The truth is Hindu religion has not kept pace with modern times.(unqote)Oh yeah, iamfordhimmicracy ?Woman priests overtake male counterparts in Maharshtra http://www.hvk.org/articles/0297/0057.html Hindu women spread the word http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1298208.stm--------------------------The main reason why Hinduism has so many "rebels" in itself, is the inherent freedom that it offers. Even in Gita, after all the philosophy, Krishna says "Yada Ichathi Tada Kuru" .. Do as you wish, NOT do as I say ...The second reason is that the way Hinduism evolved, did not consider the possibility of hatred and fire power in the name of religion, just as many later formed organised religions have. In fact there was no "believer" "non-believer" distinction in the first place - and hence the near infinite toleranceThese two aspects, in an ideal world, is a positive thing. But in a world full of people with selfish motives, and ideologies whose sole motive is to destroy anyone who differs with them, they become a weakness
Drisyadrisya, so you agree with me, in principle. You write and I quote "These two aspects, in an ideal world, is a positive thing. But in a world full of people with selfish motives, and ideologies whose sole motive is to destroy anyone who differs with them, they become a weakness"I submit to you that selfishness is the most common quality you will get anywhere. British came to India with selfish motive. Shak, Kushaan, and Hoon tribes did the same thing earlier. And I guess Hindus coereced buddhists in a similar way.. (how else would you get mutilated buddha statues in museums?).Human beings will be selfish and they will continue to organize with selfish motives. Hinduism represented that organisation some time back. Today, organising as Hindus isn't paying any returns, any dividends, simply because Hindu leaders have got this funny idea that they have to be nice and that their religion is something sublime. Come off it, my friend, else both you and me will be slaughtered in tomorrow's pogrom.
"I submit to you that selfishness is the most common quality you will get anywhere. British came to India with selfish motive."-- maybe. though a better term for that kind of thing is "greed". however, this is not a quality worth worshipping or emulating, simply because it is found in plenty in many humans. the whole purpose of religion is to move one from "base" qualities such as "greed, lust, hatred", to higher qualities such as "giving, caring, sharing" the purpose of religion is to foster the evolution of the human spirit from animalitude to divinitude. and also, hindu religion does not tell us not to protect ourselves from bad guys. Gita is the best example and it is no stranger to any Hindu. but that doesnt mean I should go out in the street with firearms tomorrow. there are many ways of fighting. this blog is just one example._
"Human beings will be selfish and they will continue to organize with selfish motives. Hinduism represented that organisation some time back."--- ImforD, who was your guru that taught you this kind of hinduism ? and which books ? which time back ? who ? which religion is this, that you are talking of ? never heard of it._
-contd/-sigh, i wish you could see thatthe organizing mentioned in theGita was for the greater good ofsociety, and not for individualself-aggrandizement. it is basedon the principle that differentpeople have different tendenciesand skills, and the division intogroups was for the sole purpose ofSERVING the whole.as averageindian said a monthback at another post, dont bad-mouth a system simply because wenow live in different times..(idont recall his exact words...).averageindian, are you readingthis ?_
Enough of this starry eyed idealism. Do you want to say that only VP Singh, Arjun Singh, and all those who follow Sonia are the only selfish people in India? Do you wish to say Advani and Vajpayee are not selfish? Or for that matter Shankaracharya or some other deemed guru?Human organizations have been studied well enough for us to know systems that maximize 'greater good' or whatever when each member of the organization believes in a selfish way. In public fora, we can only discuss things that everyone understands clearly. Idelistic rantings, self-realisation, sharing, caring and all that balderdash isn't going to stop the aggressive poaching of Hindus. Open your eyes before it is too late.
"Enough of this starry eyed idealism. Do you want to say that only VP Singh, Arjun Singh, and all those who follow Sonia are the only selfish people in India? Do you wish to say Advani and Vajpayee are not selfish?Or for that matter Shankaracharya or some other deemed guru?"--- did I say that ? why are you putting words in my mouth ?"In public fora, we can only discuss things that everyone understands clearly."-- exactly what is it my simple words, that you dont understand ? I will try to be simpler and clearer."Idelistic rantings, self-realisation, sharing, caring and all that balderdash isn't going to stop the aggressive poaching of Hindus."--- huh, where did I offer caring/sharing as an antidote to hindu poaching ? i was explaining what hindu religion is about. sorry, it isn't about organizing for selfish motives. if individuals are selfish, that doesnt make the religion selfish."Open your eyes before it is too late."-- my eyes wide open, sir. now what is your bidding, and how may I carry it out ? who should I report to ? you, rajeev, or someone else ?_
Individually people may be selfish. But are they not exhorted to work for the 'common good' by everybody?'Democracy' 'Governance' and such things have some meaning only if they are used for the betterment of the general polity.It is definitely not 'starry eyed idealism'
Rajeev, sundry opinions of all of us apart, you have hit the nail on its head when you suggested that caste-based reservations, essentially, represent a frontal attack on Hinduism. The very fact that minority institutions have been exempted proves your point. Now, can we discuss something about action. Here are my suggestions -1. DO NOT join the debate on whether reservations are good or bad. Just say that if they are good and useful, minority institutes cannot be exempted!!2. DO NOT criticise other Hindus based on their caste.3. Keep demanding that either Arjun Singh or Sonia Gandhi (50% reservation) should make way for a HINDU OBC person if reservations are increased to 50%.4. Demand that next president of India should not be a Muslim/Christain, or a Kerala/Bengal Brahmin. The next President should be a Hindu OBC if reservations are increased to 50%.5. Spread the idea around. Make sure a Hindu does not criticise other Hindu on this matter.6. Exhort brilliant kids to design their agitation shrewdly. "Do not sit on streets and allow government machinery to lathicharge you". (I was in tears when I saw bright medicos from Maharashtra lathicharged on streets, half the lathis coming from plain clothsmen).
Off-Topic:The former President of the US, Bill 'Slime-Ball' Clinton blames the 'Hindu Militants'(yeah, what is that?) for the massacre of 38 Sikhs in Chattsinghpora in Kashmir during his visit to India in 2000, when it is clear as daylight that it is the handiwork of Paki jehadis. He does this in an introduction to a book by that obnoxious lady Madeleine Albright, 'Mighty & Almighty'.I still can't figure out why the Clintons are patronised by most of the NRIs and a lot of others in India.link
iamfordemocracyFinally, instead of your irritating cribs, you seem to have come up with some nice thoughts I fully agree that there should be pressure mounted on the govt to allow reservations in minority run instituions too, especially the one which get some govt aid or grantBut quick question for you, in your suggestions, you keep saying "keep demanding" . What after that ? assuming govt doesn't give a damn (which Hindu demand have the govts ever given a heed ?) Also, who are these people who are going to organise and demand ? armchair internet activists ?
wheels4ever, thoughts shape actions. The aggressors would like Hindus to fight amongst themselves, so that they can reap the 'harvest'. Just the very awareness of this plot will dissuade people from discussing wrong things.As for your question about who is going to do...I don't have an answer. I do note that BJP has failed to find a way out of this trouble. I also note that regretfully, other Hindu organisations haven't woken up yet. Frankly, I see a rather dim future if all that people like you can do is ask questions of me.... I guess you guys enjoy poking fun at a fellow Hindu... about the same thing Arjun Singh, VP Singh, Sonia, MF Hussain, and Deepa Mehta do. Enjoy.
IamforD,I think the reason people are notreceptive to your views, is thatthere appears to be a mix-up inyour understanding of the rolesof religious organizations andpolitical organisations.You are expecting Hindu religiousorganisations to turn political.And you think they ought to bepolitical, and that Hindu religionhas failed to serve Hindus. Unfortunately, this is is a highlydebatable issue. And possiblymany, like me, see it as a flawedunderstanding of religion.Instead of catering to the needsof our soul/spirit, you think ourgurus and temples should becomepolitically active. You raised thispoint earlier.I dont think this is a good thing.And also, in your posts, I amseeing that you are using the word"Hinduism" and "Hindu Religion"as a synonym for "Hindutva". It'spossibly because you are alreadysold on the idea that religiousorganizations should protect you,hindus.Not many takers for this concept.That could be why your ideas aregetting these rebuttals.No one is poking fun at a fellowHindu._
I'm reading about Catholic outrage over "The Da Vinci Code" movie:http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147297811906&call_pageid=970599119419"There's an element of the Christian community, which argues that Christianity is the only religion at which it is still permissible to hurl slander, innuendo and lies. And when you think of the collective glee and profit that corporations, businesses, media outlets and millions of ordinary people indulge in through contemplation of the Code, it's understandable why some Christians believe their faith is under siege. It is impossible to imagine a comparable collective rubbing of the hands if the heart of a novel alleging a conspiracy of such magnitude were Buddhism, Judaism, Islam or Hinduism."
I have a post on "Minority status for Brahmins" on my blog, for those interested Drisyadrisya : This is not a brilliant idea, unless your focus is pressuring the law makers only. Theoritically in the extreme case, when the lord has created a world, the brahmin mayn't need any more for himself on a grand scale when the world is such a grand place. Jai Bajarangwali.
Here is Amartya : Sen Doesn't mention why he was driven out of Bangladesh or whether he left that country because he is communal. He doesn't speak about Paki democracy Sen doesn't answer what happens if Hammas get power by democracy. However if hindus do good then it is because of democracy, because otherwise hindus are about caste and are good at fighting for reservation. Sen has a huge say in the secular setup that creates policies for hindus.http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/05/amartya-sen-dissimulating.html
I happened to read you article on rediff about reservation and you have blamed the economic growth rightly so, but what i feel u have missed the point is the nature of reforms and the delivery system, India has changed from the percieved Socialism to Globalisation (in some terms other side of Capitalism) which was necessary to install India as a democracy and unity in diversity which is a very important thing which compared to so much os ethnic clashes taking place around the world.The other factor to link to economic development is also International and local enviornments, it is easy to comment, criticise the actions of the previous governments or history for that fact, but have we not leant any thing from history.Another factor u have skipped is the question of rural-urban divide that needs to be bridge for ushering developments for that there needs to be sops and if u call that as reservation, so be it. But it is worth to look at the issue of reservations with bridging the Urban-rural divide rather than on the caste lines..to get to a prgmatic solution.On a seperate note i kindly invite you to have a look at my blog.
Sorry forgot to give my blog name it is www.polltalk.blogspot.comand the other one ishttp://ashwinkk.livejournal.com/
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