may 16th
what do you mean, you have the right to protest? you guys are dhimmis
and have no rights. we 'minorities' run this country, and you better do
whatever we tell you to do.
see, arjun singh agrees too. that is, in between saying "i am the king,
so you cant question what i do or say, regardless of whether you are the
supreme court or the speaker of parliament or a mere citizen. l'etat,
c'est moi!"
in some circles, arjun singh would be diagnosed with megalomania. i am
told that his horoscope says he's become prime minister one day. yes,
he's pining for that one day.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1697830,001302220000.htm
Minorities Front warns medicos to call off agitation>
Press Trust of India, New Delhi, May 14, 2006
> The All India Minorities Front on Sunday threatened to take on the
> striking medicos on the streets unless they called off their agitation
> against the quota-hike.
>
73 comments:
This is like one of those irreversible chemical reactions.Congress cannot go back on it as it will lose both OBC and FC votes. BJP will support it too for fear of losing its existing OBC votes.
I wonder tho' why are these parties with such mass base and "volunteer network" not doing some surveys on the ground to figure out how much exactly such issues and appeasement serve their purpose ? especially with more than one player in the field
musings ....
"DaVinci Code" release halted in India, because we are a secular country, said Priya Ranjandas Munshi.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12815760/?GT1=8199
What is a degree? A degree is when you learn things, take tests to demonstrate your learning, to prove your worth to employers. Arjun Singh is saying that "I want to auction off test scores of those who scored well, and give them to anyone, just so I can barter for their votes in return."
If an OBC can score well on a test, then there is no need for an admission quota, since they can do well on their own merit. There is only need for tuition financial support. But to say that someone who scores poorly on tests should be given a degree anyway, even if they can't actually do the work, is fraud.
Would you want to be operated on by a surgeon who doesn't know his job, and instead was given the title of surgeon due to his ethnicity???
Rajeev, I don't understand your support for reservations here. I can see that there is a case for boosting support to the quantity and quality of teaching given to those who are backward, in order to help them out of backwardness. But how does that relate to an admissions quota?
Read an interesting article in The Hindu today. Made in China — Indian doctors
Couldn't help but relate this article to what's happening in India now.
The medical students are the hardest hit by this reservations. Much much more than Engineering and Management students. So it is little surprise that they are at the fore-front of the protesting crowd.
Now after reading this article you would realise, who will benefit the most from these reservations after Sonia Gandhi and Lalu.
It is China.
Less number of seats means more people migrating or atleast trying to migrate to countries outside India.
Not sure if it is a coincidence that China has opened up it's universities for foreigners at this juncture.
Middle class India fattening the Chinese pockets - a dream for Comrades.
It's easy to weave a conspiracy theory for everything. But this coincidence and the timing of this article in "The Hindu" is really interesting.
The Hindu, as most know, is China's propoganda weapon in India. The timing of the article is fishy. In a way the Hindu has provided free publicity for Chinese universities at a time when students in India are feeling extremely desperate.
The Hindu has struck when iron is hot ...
The middle class Indian is likely to take notice of this article and before we know China will be the destination-next for all the wanabe docs.
Rajeev, not sure what you make of this. I certainly see a link here.
Regarding the da vinci code, the protestors who say that da vinci code is anti christian are wrong. Whats wrong if Jesus married and had kids. I kinda have more respect for Him (if he ever did exist) that way, somehow.
And regarding the movie, its just a story built over a fact. A fact which was shown on National Geographic. I saw a show on the channel, where they confirmed most of what the da Vinci code has to say, except about Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene.
Also, on Nat Geo, the confirmation of the Gospel of Judas, which the church threw out of the Bible. The Gospel of Judas talks about Jesus asking Judas to "release the man who clothes me" or something to that effect. Smells of Hindu thought, doesnt it. Quite understandable, why the church is so worked up about it.
Discovery channel too carried a similar programme much earlier, but left most questions unanswered.
Regarding reservations,
BTW, Rajeev, did you happen to see medical students being caned and teargassed by the police. Really sad, I must say.
And the buffoon Arjun Toxic Singh isnt even sorry about it.
Hell, say, tomorrow the same policemen's son falls ill, how will they ever face the doctor whom they merrily caned a few years ago.
Rajeev, I kind of understand why you support reservations. Law of unintended consequences. But isnt 50% too much. It should be much less I think, so that much quality is not compromised. What about students scoring 40% and becoming doctors. Atleast the gap between meritorious students (regardless of community) and the quota students should be narrowed.
San , I dont think anything will ever come out of the protests. Arjun Toxic Singh is VP Singh part two. The same story will repeat. Some students will die, thats it.
Sometimes, I feel I should have got the hell out of here. Should have married that NRI gal whom the parents were trying to fix me up with. (arranged marriage scenarios... thats for another day).
I just saw the link.
What the hell do minorities have to do with reservations.
Well, chance par dance ho raha hai. Now in this whole thing, minorities will divide us further, and make merry, thanks to "gandhi kee najayaz aulad" Arjun Toxic Singh.
Kaunteya,
Would Indian govt recognize chinese medical degrees. I guess they will, after commies start armtwisting and wailing.
Funny, how will they treat. They will bring in bird flu, sars, mad cow etc instead. To cure bird flu, they will prescribe snake fry and dog bones. To cure impotency, they will prescribe tiger meat. :)) ..
You cannot find today in India a single politician, who has vision and true national interest. Otherwise, one would not see the kind of political dramas we are witnessing today. Why is there no attempt in bringing out a white paper on what reservations have achieved over the last 5o years or so after independence and take some corrective measures? It is a wonder that India is achieving some kind of progress in spite of the politician mafia.
Read about
Sonianomics
Pathetic.
And the buffoon Arjun Toxic Singh isnt even sorry about it.
Darkstorm,
I feel Arjun Singh is just a small fly. The real force behind this is Sonia. See how cleverly she has maintained silence on this. Though she may not depend on middle class hindus for votes, she certainly needs sanctity and certificate from them.She does not want to have a loss of image either. For all the show of not caring for her image, i am very sure that the entire Gandhi family is very conscious of their image amongst the middle class. They are trying to portray a picture of ignorance on this. And they have been successful in making Arjun Singh the scapegoat. I am surprised why Sonia Gandhi's effigy was not burnt by medicos?
Once again she has been successul in keeping "herself above politics". This is a very clever ploy used by her time and again.
During controversies she keeps safe distance from media , whether Quotrochchi, Volcker or now this. Media too is afraid of asking her questions. She is not an Ogre , as Swapan Das Gupta said once.
Natwar Singh was not the only beneficiary in Iraq. But "only" he lost his seat.
Sonia's image has been very meticulously gaurded so far.
If demonstraters are targetting Singh alone, they are missing the point.A very good opportunity to expose Sonia will be missed.
Talking of Chinese connection to all this, i also saw an article recently where the Indian government is contemplating withdrawing from Siachen. For all those who are even remotely aware of Siachen, it is common knowledge that Indian trrops withdrawal is actually going to help China and not Pakistan so much.
For all we know, India is virtually under the chinese siege. There's no other explaination for BJP's decline and Left's better than average showing in last two years.
If we track all the dots one by one we can see the red hand in a lot of places.
Hate to say this all the time. But the "conspiracy" is becoming more and more apparent.
Darkstorm,
I feel Arjun Singh is just a small fly. The real force behind this is Sonia.
Sonia was almost illeterate, she took an english course. They have been propped by well organized mafia controlling it from outside. For example, there was a buddy of Amartya Sen, a belgian economist who uses his cycle to go to work in Gandhian style. India Today had profiled him as one of the most powerful people in India after UPA govt came to power. When I go to work using a motor cycle, none gives a look except to my bike. How does this cycle ridding man become so influential ? Whom he depends on for this influence, and why the selfish politicians ( Arjun Singh would be just happy to become a PM, which he will never become) listen to such guys ? Why our media which is so good at advising is silent on such a powerful man in India ? Why RISA has so much influence on thappers of JNU who can ditch their country ?
I believe these are important issues. Arjun singh is a little idiot who wants to become a PM.
Well, I have no hope from the congress. Well, I think we must vote BJP en masse this time. It seems to be the only party that understands middle class (majority community or not). Otherwise its very difficult to stop China dominating India.
It is not very surprising to see any politician talking against reservations. I hate to say this but BJP has lost its ground. They have become a senile party with irrelevant musings. ABV, LKA or MMJ ..none spoke a word against reservations.
Btw IIM students are conspicuous by their silence on this issue. When MMJ wanted IIMs to increase the no of seats, all IIM alumni protested but none is uttering a word now. If at all Arjun Singh goes ahead with his reservation policies...an IIM seat will become a pie in the sky for most of the middle class from upper castes.
The media is slowly showing "the succes stories " of reservations.
I think this issue needs a serious people movement.Students fom all disciplines and all the IT workers etc should join the protests.
Btw IIM students are conspicuous by their silence on this issue. When MMJ wanted IIMs to increase the no of seats, all IIM alumni protested but none is uttering a word now.
Intresting observation. The IIM students got it easy, they are selecting their opponents rather than strategy.
It is not that I would expect these yound guys to get involved in all politics, nor one can say that none of them are opposed to it.......but their status is one good reason why one can have quota for IIM. it doesn't matter. Here are supposed to be elite stuff, and they are being managed as easily as an MLA. At least some of them are good at choosing their opponents, rather than strategy. What brilliance we got here !
However the real reason could be the head of IIMA, it appeared he is a secularist.
Goa. Jarkhand. Bihar. Volcker. Quottrochi. Navin Chawla. Madani. Muslim Reservations. Hindu Killings in Kashmir. 'Piss' process. Nuclear Deal. Vadodara. Maran/Tata. Da Vinci Code. Mandal Redux.
How are you guys digesting all this?
NOW, I admire Advani, Vajpayee and NDA -- a lot.
I am surprised by some of the comments here and I am surprised people are targetting Arjun Singh. The constitutional ammendment was passed long ago, and all of us intellectuals did not raise the issue much. Neither did medicos or iitians.
Further, BJP seems to be in total agreement as far as reservation policy goes. The BJP philosophers (if there are any there) have not been able to convince their OBC MP's to raise a voice against this. They would have been able to do so if they put the issue in right perspective, equating the move as an attack on Hindus, aggressors being Catholics and Sunnis. (Note the use of sects .. not religions...I hope BJP learns some tricks of trade soon).
My suspicion is that none of us posters, or BJP, or Hindu organisations really appreciate democracy or believe in it. We seem to be resigned to accepting it.
Whether you like it or not, 50% reservations will soon be implemented. It is important to accept that, and then find ways to defeat the aggressors. I don't think most any of the posters here has appreciated this fact.
IamForBJPBashing, why does every one of your post has to be about BJP and Hindu Organization bashing without rhyme or reason? You have your own blogsite where you are indulging in BJP bashing all day long. Why irritate us here?
I don't see what the problem is - surely anyone taking up a place has to satisfy entrance requirements? (There is no point in accepting a person unlikely to complete a course except as a means for fundraising - that is the college charges for the year in advance and then chucks out the failing student after the first semester when they fail to achieve satisfactory grades to continue with their studies.)
And if any "reserved" seats happen to be not taken up by ST/SC/OBC then they can be offered to other eligible applicants.
Dear "IamforDemocraticPeoplesRepublicofKorea", why won't you address my arguments?
If someone is having trouble getting the requisite marks for entrance to university, that may be call for giving them specialized teaching. But how is it a justification for giving them qualifications?
Qualifications and certifications can only be given on the basis of actual accomplishment, and not on the basis of an ethnic quota.
If a person isn't competent or able enough to practice medicine, how can you award them a medical degree? Just because they're under-represented in the medical profession? How will they be able to perform, to deliver the actual services required of them, if they have been given a degree on the basis of a quota rather than on the basis of actually being competent??
This moron just doesn't get it. He keeps arguing in a greedy and corrupt fashion.
I found a good website for creative political expression:
http://www.liquidshirts.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LS&Category_Code=CustomTP
These people will custom-print rolls of toilet paper with the picture of your choice on them. Anyone have a picture of Arjun Singh handy?
Just be sure not to use pictures of the Koran, or your lifespan will be radically shortened. ;P
Speaking of Reservations, read this to learn how
Pakistani Nukes are Reserved Only for India
Pak says that no matter who attacks it -- even the USA -- the Pak response will be to launch nukes at India. So now we can see who the madmen are.
Quite an impressive observation, San, one thought they are so...:
Qualifications and certifications can only be given on the basis of actual accomplishment
democracy :
My suspicion is that none of us posters, or BJP, or Hindu organisations really appreciate democracy or believe in it. We seem to be resigned to accepting it.
The 'we' idiots talk - meaning all of you except 'me' are idiots is all over, not a lot of news have this tone these days .
If democracy had been the final 'belief', then things would have been so good. Instead the damn thing can become a belief, and worst a belief of the marxist dictator party just to prove the other one is a member of pre-world war ruling party of Italy. Many of us have been fortunate to observe this.
To all who have commented about me, please note: I have already said that I will refrain from commenting on the merits/perils of reservation because it is a divisive debate.
Please also note that democracy isn't fair. That is unfortunate, but true. My comments just refer to strategy and tactics about the issue, not about the merits of the issue. Prithviraj Chouhan was brave and he was on the fair side, but he lost, and Jaychand Rathod eventually prevailed. It is up to you to help catholics/sunnis by fuelling the reservation fire. On the other hand, you can also act a little more intelligently and thwart the divisive plans of catholics.
The middle class has been the target of assault ever since UPA has come into being. If you notice most of the actions taken by UPA in past 2 years, they have either been against the middle classes or totally by-passed their interests.
Honestly Sonia or Arjun don't csre much of this particular section. And honestly they don't have to, since the middle class seldom votes.
What Sonia is doing makes perfect business sense to the Congress party.
All this reservation, nuclear deal, etc should be seen in the context of Congress/Commies long term goals. A few hundred doctors here and there and a few suicides would not matter to the Gandhis in a country of 1 billion.
Infact the growth of middle class population is bad news for them.
Today Chidambaram hinted at removing tax sops for housing loans - another example of indirect attack.
They say most of the middle class support the BJP. I am not sure how far that is true. Even if it is, that has no meaning. Since on Election day, most of the middle class watch "Sas-Bahu" serials or plan vacations.
I think Sushan Sareen is spot on when he says that Middle class deserves what it is getting
It is clear that unless middle class asserts itself politically and somehow unites as a single force , the Sonia Gandhis and Mohammed Shahabuddins will have a field day.
Off course it is easier said then done. Soon this reservation issue will be forgotten and the middle class will arm itself to find other avenues. But won't fight.
I often wonder why only medical and engineering is targetted. why not let's say reservations in media or film industry. Rajnikant [who i believe is an OBC] earns more in one film than all the doctors of the country put together. So if the idea of reservation is to distribute prosperity, why not in all areas. Lets say for every Rajni movie we have 70% reservation for OBCs.
Or for that matter why not in Cricket team.
Are medical and engineering the only two viable careers? What if a Dalit/OBC is not interested in medicine and wants to become an actor instead? Why not give him an "equal opportunity" in movies? Why should a "high cast" Aishwarya Rai be given 5 crores for movie? Why not a Kamala bai be given "equal opportunity" to earn?
>> I don't see what the problem is - surely anyone taking up a place has to satisfy entrance requirements?
====
Shaharyar, the entrance requirements are much less for quotas. Do you think its very difficult to score 40% in your standard 12 exams ??
Its not the entrance requirements. Its about the fact that a general category student needs to score 90%+ to qualify, while a quota student can get in on even 50% in the entrance test.
Kaunteya,
Wonderful. :-)
Chidambaram is just another commie economist types it seems. Just that he can now do nothing to reverse reforms, now that we are into WTO.
Jai ho narasimha rao kee.
Honestly, I was never impressed by that b**tard chidambaram.
VDIS.. hahaha.. I guess that was a scheme to let commie/Congressi nuts make their illegal money legal.
Yeah, why only medical and engineering. Let us also have reservations in the cricket, tennis, hockey and football teams. Kick out bhaichung bhutia, our new OBC/SCST team will lead us to the world cup. (atleast qualify for it and go down fighting to teams like costa rica, angola and saudi arabia).
In cricket, the umpire should give two chances to a quota cricketer before giving him out. LBW is controversial so it will not apply to minorities and quota cricketers.
Lets have reservations in modelling too. Why, quota fashion should be in vogue too. 50% of the models and designers should be from quota.
Hey, what about the parliament itself. There should be 50% reservations in the parliament. Why, dont you think quota MPs are good enough to run the country. Lets see if congressis/commies can pass such a law. hehehe
A note about Chidambaram. The media would like us to believe that the PM and Chidambaram are very clever people, but the truth is, Chidambaram is a rather dumb person who doesn't really understand much. It was so clear after his 2004 budget where he introduced the Security Transaction Tax. Had the tax been implemented at the rate Chidambaram proposed, the markets in India would have been dead in two months flat! (In Europe, some exchanges had tried it earlier and given it up, so Chidambaram is not only dumb, he probably isn't as well-read as media would like us to believe).
Hey, what about the parliament itself. There should be 50% reservations in the parliament.
A political savvy person can figure out that, this can be achieved after we have 1)enough Sitaram Kesharis in parliament 2) Some more Mainos to kick them out and put things in order.
To start with we can have 30% women quota in the parliament, because all Indian women minus few hundred in parliament are not important to be empowered.
BTW I like a quota in filmi industry for aiswarya likes and another quota for fashion parades. Less than a perfect in those areas would make many of the mafia go mad.
Dear bloggers, the first solid statement against Congress has just been made!! And that statement is made in a way that will hurt the troublemakers.
Do you note that Mr. Chidambaram, the know-all, is now dumbfound? Do you see he has no words to say?
Congress and CPM will now realise that the make-believe reality will help you get votes for a few months or a few years. In the long term, you cannot fool all the people.
The BJP will do well to hit hard now. And it should do so by taking on the PM, and proposing that he is no good.
People who post here are attributing lot of intelligence to Sonia Gandhi, which she doesn’t deserve. She is the dumbest person in Indian politics today. People who really matter and who are dead, if Sonia flops (or makes a wrong step) are the coterie (Ahmed Patel, Ambika Soni, Oscar Fernadez etc.) and other hangers-on. Fear is the key! They always tell her what her small brain can easily absorb and also make her believe that she is making very wise decisions, and that Congress party is flourishing today like never before, all because of her. Sycophancy works! She may not have believed this kind of talk in the beginning but over the time (and lot of brain washing) she may have started thinking that probably she didn’t know her strengths and that she is far more capable than what she thought of herself earlier. It is obvious why she is silent most of the time. She doesn’t know what to say every time and her advisers tell her to keep mum, because they are safe that way. This makes their life very comfortable.
>>There should be 50% reservations in the parliament. ...
Virat, at least 'Parliament' should be spared this brouhaha... why? Its nothing but a rogues gallery per-se and so those morons in there are right where they deserve to be. :-)
I mentioned this in one of my previous posts, and it won't harm repeating here in this Parliament context:
Parliament means an assembly of owls -- and an owl in considered to be a wise bird... but look what we have in India -- a pack of jokers and a bunch of rascals, making merry at the tax-payers hard-earned money.
>>Do you note that Mr. Chidambaram, the know-all, is now dumbfound?...
The likes of Chidambram and that dumb Sardar @ the helm -- these morons suffer from some kinda 'superiority' complex vis-a-vis the rest of the masses... kinda like the stiff-upper lip attitude of the Britishers... they won't be bothered by all this ruckus going around ... they are too insulated to give it a second-thought!
Also, as someone mentioned earlier, did you guys notice the defeaning silence from Italian Barmaid and her cronies... she remains unaffected and let the natives of the land take care of it amongst themselves... although all this charade is being enacted on her behalf by her boot-lickers...
Why does all this fill me with a sense of deja-vu? Like when the Brits landed in India and went over to colonise us... the present scenario reeks of all that... just the king-maker has changed nationalities from British to Italian... and as they say:
The female of the species is always deadlier than the male..
So guys, this is just the beginning...
aage-aage dekhiye, hota hai kya (just wait-and-watch, the best (or worst) is yet to come)!
Off Topic: More of cowardly Gandhian Hindu "Restraint"...
BTW, Agni-III described below has the capacity to reach Italy and beyond, so you know who would be worried.
From Pioneer: posted in full since site does not archive
In national disinterest
Balbir K Punj
How responsive is the UPA Government towards the external security imperatives of India? Two recent incidents put its obligation in grave doubt. On May 14, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, while inaugurating the Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO's) new office adjacent to South Block, said that India would soon embark on production of cutting edge technology weapons in sensors, robotics, propulsion systems, stealth and fighting wars through remote technology. There is also a plan for precision-guided munitions and unarmed vehicle technologies in the 11th and 12th plan period.
Top defence scientist M Natarajan of DRDO, who is also the scientific advisor to the Defence Minister, said his organisation was technically ready with the IRBM, the 4,000-km range Agni-III, and awaiting a nod from the Government for test-firing. His emphatic words "fired-off" speculations that the distance between DRDO and South Bloc had increased.
That "nod" is unlikely to come from the Government. On May 15, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said India was not going ahead with the Agni-III test. "Self-imposed restraint" was cited as the reason adding "as responsible members of the international community, we want to keep our international commitments on non-proliferation."
Agni-III is capable of carrying a nuclear payload. But what does the testing of a missile have to do with "commitments to non-proliferation"? India, Pakistan and Israel are not members of NPT, and testing of a missile has little to do with proliferation. On the eighth anniversary of Pokhran-II tests on May 11, the well-known strategic analyst, Mr Bharat Karnad rued that India's status as a nuclear state is more notional than real. Mr K Subrahmanyam, who wrote India's nuclear doctrine, also felt that we did not go about the nuclear programme professionally, and our deterrence capacity is less than credible. This symbolic capacity, instead of lending India any geopolitical advantage, could prove to be a liability because of which potential nuclear adversaries could hit India hard.
At 20 kilotons, not only India's nuclear yield, is peanuts compared with neighbouring China (3.3 megatons), the range limitation of our trusted delivery system Agni I (700-800 km) and Agni-II (2,000 km) are obvious. The two IRBMs were developed as delivery systems by the NDA Government before being handed over to Army and Air Force in October 2003 as part of minimum deterrent capacity. Indira Gandhi had not followed the Pokhran-I (1974) test to its logical conclusion by developing a nuclear delivery system. But the Vajpayee Government did so with Agni-I and Agni-II missiles with booster system provided by ISRO. It would also have put Agni-III in its place, as a functional missile by 2003, but DRDO ran into some technical troubles that delayed its delivery.
The Agni-III uses a totally new system of booster vehicle that calls for extensive ground bed tests to ensure its reliability. The Defence Minister has given the permission for ground bed testing but withheld test firing. Mr Pranab Mukherjee's rhetoric - we must behave like a "responsible member of international community", and our "commitment to non-proliferation", "self-imposed restraint", etc., - seems inane when India does not have credible deterrent capability.
Such talks are reminiscent of Nehru who stalled the Army's campaign in Mirpur and Muzaffarabad when it was getting the better of Pakistan-sponsored tribal attack in Jammu & Kashmir. Brigadier LP Sen had called it the most unpatriotic order he received in his life. Mr M Natarajan has valid reasons to relate the same about Mr Pranab Mukherjee.
But this is half as fallacious compared to the Government's plan to pull out of Saltoro. As in the case of Agni-III, it highlights a mismatch between the South Block and Ministry of Defence on the one hand and the Armed forces and strategic experts' community on the other. The Army and Air Force have been stumped by South Block's proposal sent to Pakistanis through Track II that it was willing to consider demilitarisation of Siachen provided Islamabad agreed to authentication of the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL). New Delhi will host the next round of expert-level talks under on two long standing bilateral disputes - Siachen (May 23-24) and Sir Creek Channel (May 25-26).
The Army Commanders, taking part in a three-day conference in New Delhi (April 21-23), unanimously cautioned the Central Government against proceeding with the demilitarisation of Siachen without proper disengagement procedures from Indian and Pakistani sides. The motive of the Pakistani Army is no less suspect today than it was in 1984, when it had provoked the Indian Army to occupy the Saltoro ridge in Siachen. The proof of Pakistan's perfidy, the Kargil offensive of 1999, is still fresh in public mind. With the mastermind of that campaign occupying the President's chair in Pakistan, it only serves to increase the fear. Pakistan has a history of aggression and remains bound by the Quranic concept of war explicated by Brigadier SK Malik and endorsed by General Zia-ul-Haq.
If India vacates Saltoro Ridge without any strong guarantee; Pakistan is bound to capture it. India has no military doctrine to reclaim PoK; however, annexing the Indian part of Jammu & Kashmir is a priority for Pakistan. At present, the strategic advantage is with New Delhi, which explains Islamabad's desperation. Now the Indian Army is acclimatised, rather acculturated, to Siachen. The casualty rate is virtually down to nil. The economic cost of maintaining our base is a trifle of the defence budget.
If Pakistan has a history of aggression, India has a record of foolish generosity. Whether it is the retreat of the Indian Army from Muzaffarabad, Bagh, Kotli and Skardu in 1948 or allowing China to gobble Tibet or giving up Haji Pir in 1966 or the Simla Agreement of 1972 or for that matter mutely watching 'secular' Bangladesh turn Islamic, we have committed one blunder after another.
Colonel Todd, in his book, Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, was not far wrong when he generalised an episode in life of Maharana Kumbha: "Abul Fazal relates this victory and dilates on Kumbha's greatness of soul in setting his enemy at liberty, not only without ransom but also with gifts. Such is the character of the Hindus; a mixture of arrogance, political blindness, pride and generosity. To spare a prostate foe is the creed of the Hindu cavalier and he carries all such maxims to excess." (Vol I, p 287) Is a similar tragedy waiting to touch new height over Saltoro?
All hindus....please wake up and take note...
The political parties of Nepal have decided to make the Hindu Kingdom to a Secular Republic. Thus the last hindu frotier is going to be a thing of the past. If the new constitution is passed then that will give legal cover for all missionaries and jihadis to do as they please.
There are some internet messages that there is some restriction in AIIMs news covering, where upto 94 students have collapsed. I didn't read a lot of news to verify this.
If true, I hope all the students are well and have recovered.
FAO Darkstorm - Thank you for that clarification.
Since I cannot find any article to explain the mechanics of this reservations system I had naively assumed that it was supposed to work as at my old university, Oxford. When I applied for a place there 32 years ago, they said they were implementing a policy of choosing people from public sector schools when choosing between otherwise equally qualified candidates as they were trying to improve their image which had been deemed elitist since the majority of the intake were educated in independent schools.
Sharhyar, what does FAO mean, BTW.
And really, voluntary admissions to manage a student profile is a different thing. Forcing institutions, incl private ones, to change their profile by force of a dumb law is a differnt thing altogether.
Now, Muslims and Christians are to be given 10 pc quota each. That leaves just about 30 pc for the merit students (regardless of their community) and screw up everyone (regardless of community/religion). Now if the govt backtracks on these, Muslims will start a communal riot blaming Hindus and idolworship for their ills.
Reservations might be ok, but if kept in check. Any politician who wants votebanks can now come in and increase the quotas. One fine day, quota might exceed 100 percent.
FAO in the shadows
Let me cite from this useful website: Acronym Finder
What does FAO stand for?
For the Attention of
Plain talk?
blog1
blog2
Off Topic:
This might have been posted before, but here goes once again..
Heroic Hindu Resistance to Muslim Invaders (from 636 AD to 1206 AD)
Achtung!! Here goes the Panzer-Pope, firing his first salvo against India...
link
Off-Topic:
Good article about American double-standards towards Russia.
link
In the same vein, as Kapidhwaja's link about Pope, heres another article I came across on Sulekha about how proselytizers & evangelicals target Hindu students in American Colleges & Universities... although the article is bit lengthy, but its worth the read as it lays bare the tactics of deception & chicanery practiced by these fundamentalists.
If this has been posted earlier, then I apologize in advance, if not then do read it.
Heres the link:
How Christian Evangelists Target Hindu American Students
http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=051706093445
and heres the full-text:
How Christian Evangelists Target Hindu American Students
In a fictional account of a freshman year at an American State University, author Chris Sherman tells us of an Indian-American student from the Midwest, who is "born again" after a year of intensive prayer and prodding by his evangelical Christian roommates.
Born in India and raised in the United States, the protagonist Hari Singh is caught between the Hindu-Indian culture of his immigrant parents and his desire to "be rid of his Indian roots."
An avowed agnostic when he arrives at the State University, by the end of his freshman year Harry "Bob" Singh's newfound Christian faith presents him with a final challenge: facing his parents. "What to say? He knew he had to somehow begin to see them as his parents, to "honor" them, to show this in a way they with their Hindu heritage would recognize. How was he to do this? He didn't know."
One recalls a parallel in the real-life situation of Indian-American congressman Bobby Jindal who converted to Christianity during his second year at Brown University. At the time, Jindal wrote: “It was hard for me to struggle with the competing commandments ‘Honor thy parents,’ which includes showing respect through honesty, and ‘Love God with your whole mind and heart’.”
Anyway, it should come as no surprise that the earlier fictional account includes an Indian American character in the plot, because, since the 1990s, Asian American students have become central players in American evangelical Christianity - one of the fastest growing religous/social movements in the United States.
Whereas the characterization of Hari - hard working, philosophically tenacious, and troubled by his Indianness - hints at larger issues about South Asian American identity in the context of evangelical Christianity, there is increasing evidence that Christian evangelical groups are aggressively targeting Hindu students in American college campuses for conversion.
In fact, a sampling of Asian American-identified evangelical fellowship websites reveals mission statements targeting Asian and Asian American students for outreach and membership, while simultaneously affirming a non-race-specific evangelical identity.
There is evidence that large numbers of Asian American college students are turning to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through the encouragement and support of national and local prayer and Bible study organizations. Alongside the large national organizations, there are numerous local bible studies and fellowships that are often sponsored by local churches and are ethnic specific.
In response to an increasingly diverse college population, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (IVCF), for example, developed a series of "ABC" (Asian, Black, and Chicanos) conferences beginning in 1976 and experienced a membership boom in the 1980s and 1990s producing a significant number of Asian American IVCF student leaders.
One reason for the present renewed aggressive effort is that, unlike other Asian Americans, Hindu-Americans have staunchly resisted efforts at conversion. Also, unlike other Asian Americans who are becoming increasingly associated with evangelical Christianity on college campuses, Hindu-Americans have their own campus groups such as Hindu Students Federation.
Nevertheless, evangelical "parachurch" organizations like Campus Crusade for Christ (CCC), The Navigators, and IVCF are soliciting large numbers of students to their weekly bible studies, prayer meetings, and social events. There is no doubt that Asian Americans – especially Korean and Chinese - are becoming increasingly associated with evangelical Christianity on the college campus. The hope is that Indian-Americans will follow suit.
ORGANIZATIONS TARGETING DESIS
The main concern of the recently established Fellowship of South Asian Christians (organised at the Overseas Indians Congress on Evangelism) is the evangelization of South Asians living abroad. The organization acknowledges that it is gearing to become a dynamic force for evangelism among Hindus, scattered in countries other than their homeland.
The Institute of Hindu Studies, based in the Midwest, says its mission is to be “a resource base, strategy center and a facilitator of knowledge” by providing “reliable information on India, Hinduism and the Indian Diaspora.” The IHS says its vision is “To stimulate and encourage the growth of a culturally relevant movement for frontier missions among the 2,700 unreached, predominantly caste Hindu people groups existing mostly in India, but found throughout the world.”
Bhanu Christudas, a student at William Carey International University on the campus of the U.S. Center for World Mission, writes: “I believe it is high time for us to concentrate our efforts on reaching the dear Hindu men and women around the world before this form of Satan's deception begins to devour millions more into its philosophy.” He asks fellow Christians: What is your part in reaching the Hindus for Christ?
In ‘Reaching The Hindu World’, Christudas observes, “since Hinduism "converted" into a missionary religion during the last century, it is growing more than ever before around the world.”
A recent report received by Henrietta Watson, head of the Institute of Hindu Studies at the U.S. Center for World Mission, states: "The Indo- American Society in Chicago overtly stated their goal is to have a Hindu temple and a training center in every American city with a population over 500,000 ...They are on target with imported idols and priests from India." Should we wait to hear more such reports before we begin to act, asks Christudas.
Another research report contains specific tips based on the field experiences of a senior evangelist, including detailed “do's and don'ts” :
“Do not criticize or condemn Hinduism. …. Criticizing Hinduism can make us feel we have won an argument; it will not win Hindus to Jesus Christ…Never allow a suggestion that separation from family and/or culture is necessary in becoming a disciple of Christ. …Avoid all that even hints at triumphalism and pride. …Do not speak quickly on hell, or on the fact that Jesus is the only way for salvation. …Never hurry. Any pushing for a decision or conversion will do great harm. …. Even after a profession of Christ is made, do not force quick changes regarding pictures of gods, charms, etc. …Do not force Christian ideas into passages of Hindu scripture. … Empathize with Hindus. …. Learn to think as the Hindu thinks, and feel as he feels…. Those who move seriously into Christian work among Hindus need to become more knowledgeable in Hinduism than Hindus themselves are…A new believer should be warned against making an abrupt announcement to his or her family, since that inflicts great pain and inevitably produces deep misunderstanding….”
Indian Christian evangelist Rajendra Pillai of Clarksburg, Md., gives the following advice in the Baptist Press of August 15, 2003: ‘Learn to think as the Hindu thinks, and feel as he feels’. Based in Clarksburg, Md., he is the author of a new book, "Reaching the World in Our Own Backyard."
Pillai explains: “We are slowly realizing that our neighborhoods, communities and workplaces are changing. We're waking up to the fact that we now have new kinds of neighbors -- they look different, they speak a different language, they eat different kinds of food and speak with a foreign accent. We know they aren't Christians, because they worship other gods.
“North America has always been a land of immigrants, but now we have a new wave of people coming from countries in Asia, Africa and the Middle East adding to the growing religious diversity in North America. We don't have to go overseas to meet someone from another culture. Each one of us can now be a missionary in our own communities.
“Between 1990 and 2000, Hinduism has emerged as one of the fastest-growing religions in America. The number of Asian-Indians, most of whom are Hindu, has doubled every 10 years since 1980 to reach a record 1.7 million in 2000. USA Today reported that there are currently 1.3 million Hindus in the United States. The Pluralism Project of Harvard University (www.pluralism.org) lists more than 700 Hindu temples in the United States, many built in the last 10 years. Many more are in the construction stage.”
Pillai observes, “We can effectively reach Asian-Indians by knowing a little about their culture, beliefs and practices. First and foremost, we need to learn as much as possible about Hinduism.”
And he offers the following pointers:
“The Indian culture is highly collectivist. This means that most Indians will consider their acceptance of the Gospel in light of how it will impact their families and friends. There is also a strong possibility of being rejected by family members if a person changes his or her religion. Chances are you will not get an immediate response. Be prepared to walk with and support your Indian friend if he or she wrestles spiritually.
“As Indians come from a collectivist society and yearn for community, many will be open to coming to church if it means being a part of a community where people are genuinely concerned about each other. You might start by inviting them to less-threatening events outside of a Sunday church service.
“Most Asian-Indians yearn for community. Coming from a collectivist society, they have a tough time adjusting to the American individualistic culture. This is where Christians can step in, and the church can become the community they are seeking.”
Pillai warns: “One thing that turns off many Asian-Indians is when Christians in this country just share the Gospel but are not interested in them in any other way. So if they say "no" to the Gospel, the same Christian friends and acquaintances disappear from their lives. Christian Asian-Indians who used to be Hindus say the most convincing argument for following Christ came through the love Christians showed toward them.”
Finally, asks Pillai: “If His heart beats for people from every nation and if Jesus died for all nations, then how can we keep the great news of the Gospel to ourselves, especially now that they live next door?”
In Mission Frontier’s article ‘personal evangelism among educated Hindus’, H.L. Richards writes: ‘Friendship evangelism is usually easy to initiate with Hindus. Most Hindus esteem religion in general and are free and open to speak about it. A sincere, nonjudgemental interest in all aspects of Indian Life will provide a good basis for friendship. Personal interaction with Hindus will lead to a more certain grasp of the essence of Hinduism than reading many books. A consistently Christ-like life is the most important factor in sharing the gospel with Hindus. The suggestions that follow should help to break down misunderstandings, of which there are far too many, and help to build a positive witness for Christ. Yet learning and applying these points can never substitute for a transparent life of peace and joy in discipleship to Jesus Christ.’
He advises: 1. Do not criticize or condemn Hinduism. There is much that is good and much that is bad in the practice of both Christianity and Hinduism. Pointing out the worst aspects of Hinduism is hardly the way to win friends or show love. It is to the credit of Hindus that they rarely retaliate against Christians by pointing out all our shameful practices and failures. Criticizing Hinduism can make us feel we have won an argument; it will not win Hindus to Jesus Christ.
5. Do not speak quickly on hell, or on the fact that Jesus is the only way for salvation. Hindus hear these things as triumphalism and are offended unnecessarily. Speak of hell only with tears of compassion. Point to Jesus so that it is obvious he is the only way, but leave the Hindu to see and conclude this for himself, rather than trying to force it on him. Richards says that a Hindu who professes faith in Christ must be helped as far as possible to work out the meaning of that commitment in his own cultural context.
He also warns: A new believer should be warned against making an abrupt announcement to his or her family, since that inflicts great pain and inevitable produces deep misunderstanding. Ideally, a Hindu will share each step of the pilgrimage to Christ with his or her family, so that there is no surprise at the end. An early stage of the communication, to be reaffirmed continually, would be the honest esteem for Indian/Hindu traditions in general that the disciple of Christ can and does maintain.
HINDU STUDENT MINISTRY
Steve Edwards, an IVCF staff member serving on the campus of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and Virginia State University, recently outlined his view of Hindu ‘student ministry’ in no uncertain terms.
He observes that students from India have recently surpassed the Chinese as the largest international group on the campus where he serves, but that ‘in spite of their large numbers there are very few believers.’
Edwards acknowledges that while working with Indian students, the evangelists often “get a foot in the door” by meeting practical needs. This may include assisting with English or hospitality needs. “The best way to start is through friendship, taking the time to listen and to learn about their individual backgrounds and beliefs” he advises.
According to Edwards, “even if believing in Jesus were acceptable to the family, it would likely become a point of conflict when it came to issues of marriage and children. Hindus may and often do find Jesus personally appealing. But an individual decision to become a follower of Christ is quite difficult because it implies a rejection of one’s own dharma and the acceptance of the “Christian” dharma.”
He explains: “God has given us a wonderful opportunity to welcome them and share the good news of Christ with them. But significant obstacles exist. Therefore, it is vital for us to understand the challenges that we must face in sharing Christ with them and also the challenges they face in coming to Christ.
“Most Hindus readily acknowledge the reality of God’s work in life and are not afraid to discuss spiritual matters. As a result, offers to pray for and with them are rarely refused and often welcomed. This is a tangible way we can show our concern and ask God to bless them and provide specifically for their needs. Simply put, Hindus are open to spiritual things. Edwards reveals: “Recently, I met a new student from India who seemed quite interested in visiting church and perhaps a Bible study. But first he wanted to make sure that he didn’t need to be baptized or believe that Jesus was the only way to God before attending. As believers our response is to invite them to “Come and see,” with no strings attached and allow the person of Christ as seen in the Bible and the work of the Holy Spirit to lead them to faith.”
Noting that the majority of Indian students come from Hindu families, Edwards discusses conversion efforts directed at Hindu students on American campuses and, specifically, his experiences of prayer, partnerships and perseverance, which he claims has been essential in the formation of an ‘Indian Christian Fellowship’.
“It is my prayer that this would encourage others in sharing Christ with Indian students in their campuses and communities. May God pour out his grace on India and bring many into his kingdom in the coming years.”
OBSTACLES ENUMERATED
As Edwards sees it, Indian culture and religion present significant obstacles to communicating Christianity to Indian students. He is convinced that, “given the ancient spiritual strongholds that exist in the Hindu world it is essential that this ministry be founded upon and sustained by faithful prayer.”
One of the method he advocates, besides prayer, is “partnerships with like-minded Indian believers among students and in the community.” He notes that “while some Indian students want to interact with other cultures it seems that most prefer to remain in a culturally familiar environment.”In addition, explains Edwards, the partnership helps to dispel the widespread preconception that Christianity is just a Western religion.
Finally, he notes that a common suspicion among Hindus is that Christians want to make converts for selfish reasons like pride, financial gain or political power. In contrast, the Bible reminds us that love must be sincere. “We have seen God at work, but it is often a very slow process…We must be patient and wait for God to bring fruit as we are faithful in planting and watering the seeds of the Indian Christian Fellowship.”
Edwards, who began his involvement with Indian students while he was a graduate student in an engineering school, recalls: “I was surrounded by Indian students in my classes and actively involved in an international student fellowship. Like so many, I was amazed by the openness of the Chinese students who sought out knowledge of the Bible, often from the moment they arrived. Indian students on the other hand would scarcely ever come to any Christian sponsored event even though their numbers were comparable to those of the Chinese students.”
Edwards explains: “So, I began praying for India and for the students that I knew and learning about their culture and beliefs. During that time, God brought me into a close friendship with a Hindu background believer. Through our friendship I saw how difficult it was for him to reconcile his faith with family expectations and pressures. (I also developed a love for Indian food which is a fringe benefit).
“I also had a growing friendship with a Hindu classmate. We had numerous occasions to openly discuss spiritual matters and even though he freely admitted that his life was incomplete I was saddened to see so little change. Periodically, he would remind me that he was a Brahmin, the highest caste in Hinduism, which I learned only added to the barriers.
“One evening early on in our friendship he told me he would be very disappointed and hurt if I was only trying to be his friend in order to “convert” him. His directness shocked me, but it was something I needed to hear. It showed me the suspicions that Hindu students often have of the motives of Christians and their repulsion at the very idea of conversion. It also underscored how essential it is for our love to be sincere and the value of partnering with Indian believers so that Christianity is not equated with Western culture.”
Thus, on completion of graduate studies, Edwards joined as staff member with IVCF’s international student ministries. “From the start, one of my personal desires was to reach out to the large Indian community. While ministry opportunities with other student groups grew, it remained difficult to make more than isolated contacts with the Indian community.”
Edwards says he ‘began praying for the Indian community and for God to bring some Indian believers to join us. There were several years of prayer before we saw any answers, and many disappointments along the way. He once even contacted an Indian Christian student ‘to see if he had a desire to reach out to the Indian community but he frankly said “No.”’
During the following summer Edwards visited India and got a firsthand taste of Indian culture. “Those experiences were priceless and opened doors of trust and understanding that I doubt I could have gained any other way” he says.
According to Edwards, the next fall brought 3 Christian students from Kerala with whom he formed the Indian Christian Fellowship (ICF) “with the faculty advisor being one of our prayer partners who shared our heart for the South Asian students.”
“Later that semester, two Hindu friends we had been praying for went on an international evangelistic retreat with us because of the invitation of an Indian Christian friend. The speaker at the retreat was also from India and their experiences at that event challenged them to seek God further. Immediately afterwards they began attending the fellowship regularly. Even though they faced some challenges from other Indian friends, they soon became a part of our “family.”
“After attending the fellowship for one year, one of these students began following Jesus. Initially, it was a private decision. But it was soon apparent that it was a genuine step of faith with strong evidence of God’s work in his life. Within a short period of time his friends began to ask him what had happened to him and why he had changed. In the months that have followed, he has grown dramatically in his knowledge of the Word and in witness: bringing several friends to the fellowship and even leading a college friend to Christ.
“Although these students face difficult issues ahead (family and marriage especially) we are excited about how God’s work will overflow as we grow and serve together. As a result of these developments and as an answer to prayer, in just the past few months we have seen a significant increase in the number of students visiting the fellowship or curious about Christ.”
AGGRESSIVE EVANGELISM
The perception that Asian American students are currently disproportionately involved in InterVarsity and Campus Crusade for Christ appears to be well founded, according to available information.
The aggressive evangelism that took place in Asia after World War II was responsible for Christianizing an emigrant Korean and Chinese population. Evangelists note the dramatic growth in Korean Christianity from three million believers in 1974 to seven million in 1978 as a striking example. They say that a good percentage of Korean American evangelical students in the 1990s would appear to be the harvest of Campus Crusade's farsighted sowing as Korean immigration to the United States rapidly increased in the decades following. A similar trajectory is seen for the emerging South Asian American community numbering about 3 million.
Asian American evangelicals report that being a Christian does not mean rejecting Asian American identity or Asian culture. One IVCF Chinese American staff worker involved with InterVarsity since the early 1970s explained that she came to a deeper understanding of herself as Asian American through the Pacific Alliance of Chinese Evangelicals and an IVCF Discipleship Training program that took her to Singapore. Other students find that evangelical Christianity reinforces "Asian " values of family, work, and education: "Many Confucian ideas are similar to Christian ideals - like honoring your parents, living a moral, virtuous life, and working hard...there are definitely teachings from Buddhism that are very Christian...not harming anyone, trying to live a good life. ..Asian culture has it embedded that you are supposed to give respect to older people...My parents used to say bow to your grandmother when she comes. I might have done it but I tended to be rebellious. But now I know from the Bible that that's a very Biblical thing. Now it's not just for cultural reasons, but for Bible reasons I want to follow that part of Korean culture."
And, as Bobby Jindal explained in a letter to a Sikh friend: “Only after years of open feuding did my parents realize my new faith had not caused me to reject them or my heritage.”
It is clear that evangelical Christianity will continue to attract large numbers of Asian American college students because it provides well-structured and nurturing communities tailored for surviving the anxieties, alienation and liminality of the college experience. Until well-documented evidence is available, we can only speculate as to why some Asian Americans, and specifically Korean and Chinese American students, are more involved in evangelicalism in comparison with Filipinos and South Asians.
An example of what evangelical faith entails is found in an Ivy League based Indian Christian Fellowship statement of purpose: "The purpose of ICF is to establish, assist, and encourage students who attest the Lord Jesus Christ as God Incarnate and have these major objectives: To lead others in to a personal faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. To help Christians grow toward maturity as disciples of Christ through the study of the Bible, through prayer, and through Christian fellowship. To present the call of God to the world mission of the Church, and to help students and faculty discover God's role for them."
THE CASE OF BOBBY JINDAL
As it turns out, the story of Piyush Bobby Jindal’s transformation from a devout young Hindu to a zealous Catholic offers an intriguing glimpse into the struggle, often traumatic, of a young Indian American caught between his heritage and his parents on the one hand and his intellectual and emotional turmoil in America.
“My journey from Hinduism to Christianity was a gradual and painful one,” Bobby Jindal acknowledged in a 1993 article that he wrote while he was a graduate student at Oxford. As Jindal readily confessed in that article, “it never occurred to me that I should consider any other religion; to be a Hindu was an aspect of my Indian identity.” So his parents were especially surprised that he had investigated Hinduism and found it lacking. “It was important that I had given our shared faith fair consideration.”
Jindal recalls, “my parents were infuriated by my conversion and have yet to fully forgive me.”
As Jindal explains, “My parents went through different phases of anger and disappointment. They blamed themselves for being bad parents, blamed me for being a bad son and blamed evangelists for spreading dissension. There were heated discussions, many of them invoking family loyalty and national identity.
He elaborates: “My parents have never truly accepted my conversion and still see my faith as a negative that overshadows my accomplishments. They were hurt and felt I was rejecting them by accepting Christianity. According to Jindal, his parents resorted to “ethnic loyalty” to counter his new faith.
What was the motivation for Jindal’s rejection of Hinduism and his acceptance of Christianity? The answer can be pieced together in his own words.
Essentially Jindal claims that having studied the Bible, he accepted Jesus Christ’s radical claim to divinity, along with Christ’s redemptive sacrifice on the cross. That is, Christ had died to redeem mankind from sin.
“I was comfortable in my Hindu faith and enjoyed an active prayer life; I only gradually felt a void and stubbornly resisted God’s call…it was truth and love that finally forced me to accept Christ as Lord” Jindal recalled in an article.
In comparing Hinduism with his new faith, Jindal noted that whereas “Hinduism taught me to earn my way to God’s grace” he found Christ’s sacrifice on the cross meant something personal for him. “God loved me and was lifting me up to Him” declared Jindal, two years after his conversion. The young Hindu American had examined Hinduism and found it wanting. Looked at from another perspective, the Hindus whom he approached were not competent enough to satisfy his intellectual curiosity.
While he explains that he is aware of “gross injustices in the name of truth and God” committed by missionaries in India and elsewhere, Jindal is appreciative of their enormous contributions to health and education. That’s why he exhorts: “Let us all become missionaries and live so that the world will know us by our love.”
In his 1993 article, Jindal wrote wistfully, “I long for the day when my parents understand, respect and possibly accept my faith. For now I am satisfied that they accept me.”
How far will an individual or a loose group of justic-seekers be able to stop persistent hostile attempts from an organised group? Isn't organisation essential to counter organisation?
Do you really think that the love of Gurus will melt the resolve of catholics and other aggressive sects?
We already have Two Hindu groups looking to an Anthony Fernandes for the solution of the reservation issue. Surely, he will want to add fuel to the fire...
Re:
"Do you really think that the love of Gurus will melt the resolve of catholics and other aggressive sects?"
-- I dont think so. But the love of
gurus draws more people to the
Guru. Why would I need a christ,
if I have a guru in front of
me, who can tell me about god,
faith, love, grace and all that.
when a guru can be a window to
the divine, why would one want
to go near x-ianity.
so a lot of hindu gurus is a
very good thing.
it's people who have no gurus
OR are not somehow already
firmly grounded in faith, god,
god's grace, who end up as easy
prey for the conversionists.
_
OT:
May have been posted before, but still a good read from an article in May 2005.
Selling Indian sovereignty
Gautam sen
The deep penetration of contemporary India has pre-independence roots. British intelligence services had established relationships with many Communists and fellow- travellers while they were in custody during World War II. Stalin, the supreme leader of international Communism, had urged them to suspend their independence struggle in the forlorn hope that the Anglo-American alliance would come to the aid of an imperilled Soviet Russia.
Many of these compromised Indian Leftists went on to become successful professionals in independent India, often attaining high public office, while remaining British intelligence assets. After 1947, the British also nurtured their ties with disgruntled Muslims, whom they had long cultivated to thwart Indian nationalism. And, no doubt, enough Congress party members as well as some in other political factions too had been on their payroll. All these contacts became more important to the Western powers with the worsening of the Cold War in the 1950s.
Yet the evidence points to a robust defence of India's sovereignty by Jawaharlal Nehru, who was determined to protect its decision-making autonomy. But his political prejudices simultaneously undermined the very goal of defending sovereignty that he deemed precious. He had a weakness for Communists because some of them had a British educational background and were therefore supposedly immune to Hindu religious mumbo jumbo though this was a standard of judgement he did not apply to others.
Nehru was also indiscriminately indulgent towards sectarian Muslim claims because it seemed the right thing to do in the aftermath of the horrors of partition. But it was the heightened Communist presence that meant the traitors within could prosper in India.
They subverted India as they gyrated to the ideological tune of imperialist patrons. Ironically, they have ended up representing the constituency of the Muslim League, espousing the secular coda of Lalu Prasad Yadav to justify their absurd political contortions. Infiltration of the Indian media and higher education was one long-standing stratagem they adopted. Betrayal became institutionalised as they collaborated routinely with foreign governments against the paramount danger posed by the alleged propensity of Hinduism towards fascism, bafflingly linked with financial liberalisation by one ideologue recently. Ideological legitimacy for their dalliance with US security agencies was provided by Mao's alliance in the 1970s with the mass murderers, Nixon and Kissinger.
The imperative for India's enemies to activate infiltrated assets and join the political fray in India was dramatically heightened by the Bangladesh war of 1971. Both the US and Pakistan swore revenge against India and Indira Gandhi. She had done what no other Indian leader had attempted before or has done so since. She defied dire US threats, created an audacious diplomatic diversion and achieved the greatest triumph of Indian arms in centuries, aided by the brilliant military strategist, Lt General JFR Jacob of Bengal.
Much of what followed, from the suspicious events preceding the Emergency to Mrs Gandhi's assassination, had the unmistakable hallmarks of a covert intelligence operation. And the Indian Left, lest it should be forgotten, argued against her in their vociferous support of Pakistani genocide. They regarded the grossest human rights violations since European Nazism as the lesser evil compared to the class exploitation of India's upper caste state.
One significant episode was the national railway strike, which attempted to strangle its internal communications and overthrow Mrs Gandhi's government. It was remarkably similar to the US-sponsored trucker's strike in Chile two years earlier, in 1972, which destroyed Allende's government. Some Janata politicians, who won the election after Mrs Gandhi's Emergency, are known to have been on US payroll. The mercifully short-lived Janata regime curtailed budgetary support for India's nuclear weapons programme, in consonance with US preferences.
In fact, the pre-existing opposition of the "Young Turks" to Mrs Gandhi's rule was a familiar technique employed elsewhere in the world by US agencies against difficult regimes. It entailed inciting internal dissent by a more radical faction within a dominant political party in order to precipitate centrifugal political forces. The ultimate goal was to create divisions that allowed infiltration and political control of warring groups.
The scale of the Khalistani secessionist rebellion soon after, though precipitated by political mismanagement and errors of judgement, was part of the Anglo-American-Pakistani revenge that Henry Kissinger had promised. Significantly, Jagjit Singh Chauhan, a guest of the British, declared Khalistani independence in Birmingham, on the very day Dhaka fell to Indian forces. In fact, the Kanishka bombers were trained in the US by the CIA at the behest of the ISI.
During this period, Sino-American help allowed Pakistan to acquire nuclear weapons, paralleling earlier US assistance in the 1970s to China's fledgling nuclear weapons programme, which they feared was vulnerable to a Soviet pre-emptive strike. Both diabolical ventures, which now threaten the world with nuclear terrorism, were intended to bolster these military dictatorships against malign Indo-Soviet influence. Kashmir, which Pakistan steadfastly refused to discuss with India during the 1980s, subsequently became a continuation of the same policy of bleeding a recalcitrant pro-Soviet India.
The turning point for subverting India from within had been Mrs Gandhi's refusal to obey US dictates over Bangladesh. The US subsequently moved quickly to help its surrogates seize control of Bangladesh. It connived in the brutal assassination of Mujibur Rehman and his entire family and the country soon returned to the Pakistani fold. The US concentrated assiduously on undermining India from within. The full story of the penetration of Indian intellectual life through infiltration of the upper reaches of Indian social science higher education by British and US agencies is still to be told.
Quasi-official US agencies, earlier reviled for being vehicles for promoting US Cold War foreign policy objectives, made a virtual clean sweep of Leftist Indian academia through patronage of various kinds. The moulding of Chinese studies in India by Beijing was one remarkable outcome of systematic foreign infiltration. Revealingly, much of the Indian media now displays unctuous sensitivity to Pakistani, Chinese and US concerns, treating them pretty much on par with the policies of an allegedly militarist India.
This bias became even more pronounced after 1999 when alleged Hindu fascism, headed by the remarkably inoffensive Vajpayee and Advani duo, reared its ugly head to threaten civilisation, on a scale unknown since the demise of Adolf Hitler, according to newly-minted folklore. Yet the paradox of this make-believe ideological polarisation of Indian political life is that the Vajpayee-Advani NDA was the most self-consciously secular government since independence. The two leaders struggled valiantly to control their own radical elements, when India was more politically divided compared to the quiescent state of affairs encountered by Nehru.
In these difficult circumstances, the NDA reached out open-heartedly to India's adamantly secular establishment, the resolutely anti-Sangh media and Ford-funded Leftists. It appointed them to most important public bodies and key academic posts, keeping out those perceived as 'wild' elements of the 'Hindu fringe'.
The bizarre conclusion to this story is that India's secular political agglomeration now stretches from the Islamo-Leftist combine and the Congress, the SP, the BSP and Mr Lalu Prasad Yadav to important elements within the BJP itself! The main purpose of this secular charade is to oppose national cohesion because that would deflect class solidarity, overwhelm minority sectarianism and undercut imperialist machinations. Foreign agencies now operate openly in India, compromising MPs, ministers and bureaucrats. Many teenage children of these Indian elite are on fully funded degree programmes abroad. And millions of dollars of Arab and US intelligence (masquerading as evangelism) resources have poured into this gaping hole of greed and betrayal to help consolidate minority votes strategically against the 'majority', in India's fractured polity.
(The writer is Director, Gandhi-Einstein Foundation, India and the UK)
Nice as the article is, it is one more mudpot thrown at the wrongdoers. Are there any articles that point out where exactly the nationalists failed and how?
Thousands of BJP and RSS supporters are literate and web-savvy, yet BJP and RSS web presence is minimal...why?
Hindu is still an undefined term. Why?
Please note that there are hundreds of thousands of people in this world who dislike religious domination. There are a huge number of people who declare they have no religion. What is a threat to Hindus today is a threat to all these free and independent people. Still, there has been no attempt to educate them and enlist their help.
Indeed, so many imerialist countries and groups would not like India to prosper, and indeed, they have been at it all through, using means fair and foul. I suggest there is nothing unusual about it. What is unusual is that our own people and groups have failed us. Partly because of our tolerance, which is quite nice and desirable, but also because of a lack of political understanding (which essentially means you support a group and shape their policies).
And before any of you start jumping at me, consider whether you could influence your friends in BJP, RSS, and other Hindu organisations to be a little more dynamic? Remember, the ground beneath you is slipping fast!!
re:
An example of what evangelical faith entails is found in an Ivy League based Indian Christian Fellowship statement of purpose: "The purpose of ICF is to establish, assist, and encourage students who attest the Lord Jesus Christ as God Incarnate and have these major objectives: To lead others in to a personal faith in Christ as Lord and Savior.
--- cute lies.
till yesterday Christ was Son of God.
now he has been promoted to God Incarnate. why ? because X-its have learned that Hinuduism holds Rama and Krishna as God Incarnate, not as Son of God.
so X-ists have changed their religion to strategise hindu conversion.
People tell me that a group of Baba Ramdev's supporters has vowed not to watch NDTV (because communists are out to kill him - as some of his supporters think). I don't know the details. Post them if you know. I agree with the idea.
what good is this "not watching"
a particular channel - you pay the
whole cable bill anyway, dont you ?
it is better to watch the channel
and be more aware.
"IamForBJPBashing",why don't you should join the BJP, RSS and try to influence them to be more 'dynamic' as you suggested?
i think iamford is trying to be
"active" rather than "passive"
in suggesting that we influence
friends in BJP if any. in fact,
it's being action-oriented. he
didnt bash BJP this time. so
let's not keep throwing cold water
on his comments. it isnt fair :-)
but no friend will do anybody's
bidding, just like none of us will
do anybody's bidding. so we can
also suggest that iamford join
BJP and active politics...why not ?
_
The Jews have learnt their lessons well. The Israeli Internal Security minister Avi Dichter has to say this with regard to Iran's new law forcing non-muslims to wear colored badges...
Avi Dichter: He who forces Jews to wear ribbons will die
Internal Security Minister Avi Dichter said in response to the reports regarding Iran’s plan to obligate minority members wear colored badges that, “he who will force Jews, wherever they may be, to wear yellow badges will eventually find himself in a casket covered in black cloth.”
The Hindus have lost the most number of people over 10 centuries to Islamic terrorism, but have we learnt anything at all?
Here's the NYT on The Da Vinci Code:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/21/weekinreview/21goodstein.html
As even they admit, Christians in India are more zealous (read: fanatical) than those in the USA.
Indian Catholics are far more conservative and zealous than the Vatican itself:
http://us.rediff.com/news/2006/may/18flip.htm?q=np&file=.htm
No surprise there!
this is for iamfordemocracy:
iamfordemocracy,
sri sri ravishankar has spoken to
the press on reservations. i saw
this in today's paper. he is
against any kind of caste-based
discrimination, as well as reverse
discrimination. he is not in favour
of quotas (i assume he means only
these new quotas).
this is just fyi, since you brought
it up earlier.
p.s.
i have been sternly ordered in the
past not to mention anything about
my guru, since he is not the blog-
owner's guru or everyone's guru
here.
i am not trying to promote sri sri
or do any conversion here, nor
excited about sending news about
my guru, so dont get me wrong.
i am not a conversionist!
i am also fully aware that this
blog is 99% secular when it comes
to talking anything good about
gurus.
only anti-guru statements are
banned...
a little better than govt.of india
which doesnt care if hindu
sentiments are hurt. much better.
_
The Indo- American Society in Chicago overtly stated their goal is to have a Hindu temple and a training center in every American city with a population over 500,000 ...They are on target with imported idols and priests from India
Take a leaf from India, create a no conversion/temple law. That will put a damper on importing idols and priests. Wonder what Visa they use to get the priests to the US. Hmmmm.
Wow san, the NYT has got this one right when all the other articles on India are so wrong. And the Catholic Church in India is defying the Vatican !!! ;)
sunnywarrior,
i posted a comment for someone else
to see on the blog (amfordemocracy)
will you have the courtesy to
give him a fair amount of time to
access the blog and read it and
not push it away with your comment.
you are simply wasting another
blogger's time and efforts in your
eagerness to post your unwelcome
comments here.
realise that you are considered a
troll. unless you have something
urgent to convey, do not disturb.
have the courtesy to wait. you are
a cultured X-ian, arent you ?
what kind of culture, that you
cant even wait in line ?
IamforDemocracy, I left a post for
you above sunnywarrior's. I took the trouble to write to you, so
dont miss my post.
_
Democracy,
As you know there have been pro-hindu organizations like RSS/BJP, but the institutions controlled by marxists and others brought in issues like racial analysis, undemocratic, fascism etc to slander the hindus. I also think the pro-hindu organizations should be good at recognizing such ideas. Please help in exposing the anti-hindu ideas .
Why you are so repeatative about some definition not existing ? WHy don't you start religion by learning from some hindu teacher (there is info in this blog only in some posts), before going to your final frontier of definitions, democracies ......When the understanding is attacked so seriously , people make excuses of democracy, secularism, humanity, poverty..... But apparently a definition is considered more important. Are we talking of a definition which we can gift to marxists so that they can analyze idiots like us ?
Nice as the article is, it is one more mudpot thrown at the wrongdoers. Are there any articles that point out where exactly the nationalists failed and how?
Thousands of BJP and RSS supporters are literate and web-savvy, yet BJP and RSS web presence is minimal...why?
Hindu is still an undefined term. Why?
That will put a damper on importing idols and priests.
Warrior,
Anti-idolators like those who want to install idol of stalin, or mafia idolators, who mislead the masses that the organization controlled by them are the idols would be quite impressed by you. You seem to have no issues with these mafia ?
SunnyGayMoron, the temples in America are for, by and of Hindus. Not for converting others who have already been 'saved'. By your logic, India should ban x-tianity and kick out all the x-tians and take over the church lands. Thats not the case here. It is against predatory missionary conversions. Not for a ban on x-tianity. We dont want more demented, gay converted perverts like you who have allegedly been 'saved'.
We know its hard for you to think straight as you are gay, having been repeatedly raped by your 'Father' at the Parish. But surely, there must be self-help groups for people of your ilk. You should use their services instead of wasting your time on this blog.
The Indo- American Society in Chicago overtly stated their goal is to have a Hindu temple and a training center in every American city with a population over 500,000 ...They are on target with imported idols and priests from India
Take a leaf from India, create a no conversion/temple law. That will put a damper on importing idols and priests. Wonder what Visa they use to get the priests to the US. Hmmmm.
If one group of invaders occupy a country for long, and then use their recruited agents to slander the native culture using stalinist and missionary derogatory practices, then the countries should defend their population.
Sunny :
SOme may feel having a hindu temple for hindus, that without a jijia tax is too much of an invasion . But let us understand these are ideas of mediaval barbrians.
I like the idea of supporters, NDTV should openly disssociate itself from the terrorists.
People tell me that a group of Baba Ramdev's supporters has vowed not to watch NDTV (because communists are out to kill him - as some of his supporters think). I don't know the details. Post them if you know. I agree with the idea.
Kapi,
A great article indeed. It shows how a lone person in Gautam Sen is fighting the mafia by exposing them. Thanks for posting the informative article.
"Wonder what Visa they use to get the priests to the US. Hmmmm."
-- I also wonder what visa was used
by st.Thomas, by Portuguese, by
M.Theresa, and all the bunches
of missionaries that came to
India and stil keep coming here.
I suspect they apply for SYSED
Visa and they get it easily.
And it is delivered to them
from heaven by Santa Claus and
sometimes by tooth fairies. They
dont even have to ask our Govt
for permission. God gives it to
them because he loves them so
much for accepting Christ as
their lord and saviour.
Note:
SYSED = "Saving Your Souls From
Eternal Damnation".
_
Sonia was almost illeterate, she took an english course. They have been propped by well organized mafia controlling it from outside.
First learn to spell,then learn to speak English and then attempt to criticise others.
Thank you
There are so many Hindu-haters in India and only one party that says it is pro-Hindu so most supporters of BJP tend to be emotional about BJP. I only wish they were more objective.
Consider this single point. All the money collected by all other religious entities directly goes to support them. Only the money of Hindu worshippers is usurped by the government. Crores from Siddhibinayak temple have ended in the hands of Congress politicians, and same must be the case about other temples. If BJP had handed over the temples to Hindus, they would have created thousands of temple trustees with active interest in Hinduism. Nobody would have been able to stop BJP. Nobody could have objected this as it would have been impossible for anyone to do so (just like it is impossible for any party to oppose reservations). Did BJP do this simple thing?
If not, why not? Did they want to have monopoly over Hindu sentiments? Please think about this calmly. Until you find an acceptable answer to this and similar questions, it is premature to conclude that BJP is pro-Hindu.
"IamForBJPBashing", are you doing the job that Rajeev had assigned you, viz convincing 10 people every week about the dangers that Hinduism is facing? If not, scoot now and attend to it, as the ground beneath you is "fast slipping".
Salaam, SunniWarrior, certainly the Atlanticist NYT are the last to actually admit to the problems of minorityism in India. But when even they let such comments slip, then you know things are bad.
As a non-religious atheist, I feel that the Left-wing idolators are the biggest threat. But if your anti-conversion law was passed in the US, then how would you spread the Sunnah throughout the US prison system? Where would prison convicts get their daily dose of revolutionary fervour from? What would your brothers locked up in Guantanamo do?
Blind BJP supporters like Kapidhwaja fly into a rage instead of answering posts. Peace be unto them. Lord Jesus will soon be their saviour. There are little hopes from Vajpayee and Advani anyway.
Lord Jesus will soon be their saviour.
"IamForBJPBashing", thanks, but no thanks. Not interested in being 'saved' by your religion of 'love'. You can however continue to indulge in your gang-bang 'love' activities at your local parish with your 'father'.
anonimply :
There has been an argument that first people should learn a black language in ethiopia. However there are some idiots who ensure that unless one is trained in english, one must be shut up. So they spend life time learning spelling. You don't seem to give importance to learning ethiopian language. Do you ?
Sonia was almost illeterate, she took an english course. They have been propped by well organized mafia controlling it from outside.
First learn to spell,then learn to speak English and then attempt to criticise others.
Thank you
Did they want to have monopoly over Hindu sentiments?
"IamForBJPBashing" - Are you secular too ? Actually the BJP was saying that it is truely secular, to distinguish itself from undemocratic and fascist and other such things, which so good hindus hurled at it.
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