Hope u ve gone through the comments at Rediff on this column.
I am really surprised to see those comments with "Hinduism - subjugation, suppression, Brahminism blah blah blah". There are so many Brain Dead still alive."
The main problem with most of these S(i)ecular Hindus is that they dont know what is Hinduism. They confuse social evils with religious practises.
Dont you think all these Dhimmies deserve the govt at the center? Yes, they deserve...they deserver an Arjun Sings, Natwars, Mani Sucker Iyers and Sonias...they well deserver all of them.
surya, i believe rediff is filtering out pro-Hindu comments. My comment was not published. also even if the names sound hindu, the people who posted those comments may not be hindus.
Since every most politicians in India are selfish, greedy and shortsighted, One way to prevent such ridiculous bills like the 50% reservation, would be for Big companies (Who would get directly hit by the reservations) to bribe the greedy politicians to vote against it. After all money makes them do all evils, why not use it to do some good for the country? Reservation is a typical example of fighting an evil with an evil. Two wrongs would never make it right. Thanks KP
You say "Muslims / Christians from India are very much Hindustani (or Hindu or Hindi or Indian) by virtue of their heritage and ancestry from this country. "
Then to try and prove ur point you say something contradictory " Your point that there should be reservation in ‘minority'-controlled institutions is like demanding a space on neighbor’s lawn. "
And your entire argument is based on the above statement @ neighbors lawn.
If Indian Muslims & Christians are Hindustani then where is the question of 'neighbors lawn' ??
Secondly, you are not a true Hindustani...if you were you would know that Hindus are not 'idol-worshippers'...they dont worship the idol...idols are a yantra to help harness & focus the mind to pray to God. Your terminology stinks of someone educated & still in the 'convent -look down on native culture- school' mode.
Next you say "If you consider the Natural deaths of the Non-Muslims/Non-Christians of this country that would be 90% too. So will you now blame the God for injustice?" Thats ridiculous ! Suicide or murder is NOT the same as a natural death. Just like your loosing 1000 dollars is NOT the same as someone stealing it.
Also, I don't think we should take offence at him calling Hindus Idol-Worshippers.
It is very similar to our ancestors calling the marauding muslim hordes "Maleechas" when they started polluting our landscape.
The difference between Subhan Ahsan (along with the majority of Muslims) and the Hindus is that the Hindus have grown up and don't call them Maleechas anymore but they are still at the same "Marauding Muslim Horde" level (who still think of Hindus as Idol-worshippers).
Not their fault, I don't think their "BOOK" leaves any scope for them to evolve anyway.
just a technical addition to indusaquarius comment about the mlecha
I don't think the word was specifically invented for muslims, or even, as the common belief is , for "foreigners". it may have taken that meaning for a limited space-time later on
In fact Dr Kalyanaraman in his recent writings has argued that Mlecha was the language spoken by the metal workers who are also the same people behind the indus inscriptions
he says that the mention of mlecha as a language in the jadugriha parva of the Mahabharata "vidureNokto mlechchha vAchAsi pANDava" holds a key to unfolding some mystery
What is the significance of the point that 92 per cent of all those committing suicide in Kerala are Hindus. And Kerala has the highest suicide rate in India.
Can you explain as to how this suits the reservation
re. from article: "Ironically, Nairs got Travancore government jobs a century ago only after an agitation demanding equal rights, because most of those jobs had previously been given to Tamil Brahmins!"
-------- Rajeev, when tamil brahmins migrated to kerala many years back, travancore was one of the places they went to.
the raja of travancore was their patron, he gave them food and shelter. taking care of brahmins was considered important in those days, becoz they were the ones that carried the vedic and spiritual knowledge and could do pujas and homas. in the varna system, the "head" is more important than hands, body, feet. though all are necessary.
in the same spirit, i guess later on, they were given priority for jobs.
you have a tendency to show great respect for vedic knowledge, spirituality, temples, tradition etc, and have even gone to the extent of insisting that women should not wear churidars in temples, they should wear only sarees, because YOU find churidar unaesthetic). you have also quoted in some old rediff article, what sri krishna says about varnas.
but the patronage extended by the older hindu society to brahmins seems to upset you.
you cant talk out of both sides of the mouth.
even in the corporate world, the "head" is more important than the "body", "hands" "legs". so the CEO is given HIGH priorty and salary, and worker ants are paid differently.
this is a NATURAL model, which even the Gita refers to. this is how nature organizes.
but your articles seem to extol the old on one hand, and on the other hand, you are upset that brahmins were given greater importance than others.
contd: the CEO is given HIGH priorty and salary, and worker ants are paid differently, because CEO is more irreplacable and indispensable to the group.
what you are talking of is the new social order, based on open market and the validity of reservations in this day.
what i am talking of is how rajeev criticizes actions taken in the older social order, and the older society, at the same time he praises vedic heritage etc etc.
that old society had its own basis of economics. varna system operated on whole society as a group.
overnight, was it reasonable to expect that system to change ?
another analogy might be queens & kings continuing in some countries. not an exact analogy, but similar.
there is queen in england, kings in some other countries even, with new political systems.
because the old cannot be wiped out overnight.
the queen of england to me seems like she belongs to dinsosaur age and her country spends so much on her and her descendants upkeep.
for her country, she means something, though for us, she may mean nothing at all.
but old systems cannot and need not be thrown out overnight. they can only be phased out over time.
re: "Also in the same analogy you cited markets thrive in competition".
--- that is NOT what I cited! you missed my point there too. i think you were rushing to find meanings that support your own views :-)
I was saying, that in a set-up of interdependent people, such as a bee-hive, or a company, or the old indian society, there are the more important people and the less important, though all are needed. the more important persons get more patronage. gita refers to such a model.
I was not saying ANYTHING about markets thriving on competition. Neither does Gita refer to competition and free market systems.
Please dont confuse the two. Gita is too important a book to misquote.
you already stated your viewpoints somewhere and had your say. if you DONT care about Gita, why were you mixing up your comments with mine, when my post wasnt addressed to you, nor was my post anything at all about reservations.
i was writing with specific reference to Rajeev's comments. he cares a lot about Gita.
you dont have to reply to my post to convince me/others of your views on reservations. dont get mixed up in a dialogue that has nothing to do with YOUR views on reservations.
it will only confuse others who are following the thread here.
You are mixing things here. Be specific. I dont understand how reservations create more equality and more opportunities. Reservations as they exist today are out and out caste based. I dont understand how these caste based reservations reduce the divide.
Reservations in any form are no way promote equality. Keep everyting open to anyone. Schools, colleges, universities et all should give admission to the worthy whether they can pay the fee or not. Havent you heard of the story of NR Narayana Murthy ( though I dont like him) who couldnt join an IIT becasue his father was poor. Such people need to be given admission not those who couldnt even count the fingers on a hand.
re. Mobius-strip's comment: "The main reason for this state of society is caste based social and economic structure that was prevalant in our society long long ago.Education was not for all. Money handling was not for all. Fighting was not for all. People were divided by their profession."
---Well, this is not the whole truth. Long long long ago, sociey was meaningfully divided according to some old wisdom. social evils eventually came in due to blind belief.
Anyway, the Mughals and British reduced the whole of India to misery and poverty and they levelled the playing field. in a miserable way.
So it didnt matter after that what caste you were. Poverty hit the majority of people. Only some people had a lot of money.
So it is meaningless to talk of upper-caste having advantages over lower.
For professional colleges today, the only reservations that are meaningful are MERIT + MEANS based.
Caste-based reservations for professional colleges/jobs, are not fair. There are poor in every caste.
For SC/ST's special help should be given at the schooling level. Maybe 100% monetary help.
I come from an "upper-caste" family whose in whose past history there was only dire dire poverty, struggle and toil. My community does not ask for reservations.
So sorry guys, no cribbing that only the SC/ST/OBC have faced poverty and other castes had all fair-weather and sunshine. ALL castes have faced poverty, thanks to the Mughal invaders and the lovely British.
appreciate your post. thanks for writing about things we may not know about.
reg: "The ‘Merit’ and ‘Fair-ground’ based arguments are missing the central point. A BC student if scores even 65% marks against all odds... then that BC candidate is as good as or better than an UC candidate who has scored 90% with all the favourable conditions and guidance."
-- brings to mind how a race is conducted with handicaps when children of different ages are in the group --- you put the tiniest kid a few yards in front, so he has to run less.
so, wouldn't it make sense to have a multiplication factor for OBC marks, to make them all apples to apples comparison ?
unconditional reservation does not seem wise. what do you think ?
Get your facts straight before you spout your nonsense again. Hindus comprise just over 55% of total Kerala population, not 90% as you lie. Check here for proof http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Summary%20Hindus.pdf
It is not a one-off case. We knew abt NRN becasue he became famous afterwards. What about others who faced the same problem and sucked into oblivion.
There is this gal from Andhra Pradesh who secured All India 24th Rank in this year's IIT-JEE. He mother is a coolie. They are much much below poverty level. Now, this gal needs to pay around 30K per annum to study in IIT.
Dont you think she needs to be given admission irrespective of whether she pays the fee or not? Or atleast she deserves help from govt?
There are many such cases among all the castes. It is only that we know very little about them.
19 comments:
Rajeev,
Hope u ve gone through the comments at Rediff on this column.
I am really surprised to see those comments with "Hinduism - subjugation, suppression, Brahminism blah blah blah". There are so many Brain Dead still alive."
The main problem with most of these S(i)ecular Hindus is that they dont know what is Hinduism. They confuse social evils with religious practises.
Dont you think all these Dhimmies deserve the govt at the center? Yes, they deserve...they deserver an Arjun Sings, Natwars, Mani Sucker Iyers and Sonias...they well deserver all of them.
surya, i believe rediff is filtering out pro-Hindu comments. My comment was not published.
also even if the names sound hindu, the people who posted those comments may not be hindus.
Since every most politicians in India are selfish, greedy and shortsighted, One way to prevent such ridiculous bills like the 50% reservation, would be for Big companies (Who would get directly hit by the reservations) to bribe the greedy politicians to vote against it. After all money makes them do all evils, why not use it to do some good for the country? Reservation is a typical example of fighting an evil with an evil. Two wrongs would never make it right.
Thanks
KP
Subhan,
You say "Muslims / Christians from India are very much Hindustani (or Hindu or Hindi or Indian) by virtue of their heritage and ancestry from this country. "
Then to try and prove ur point you say something contradictory " Your point that there should be reservation in ‘minority'-controlled institutions is like demanding a space on neighbor’s lawn. "
And your entire argument is based on the above statement @ neighbors lawn.
If Indian Muslims & Christians are Hindustani then where is the question of 'neighbors lawn' ??
Secondly, you are not a true Hindustani...if you were you would know that Hindus are not 'idol-worshippers'...they dont worship the idol...idols are a yantra to help harness & focus the mind to pray to God. Your terminology stinks of someone educated & still in the 'convent -look down on native culture- school' mode.
Next you say "If you consider the Natural deaths of the Non-Muslims/Non-Christians of this country that would be 90% too. So will you now blame the God for injustice?" Thats ridiculous ! Suicide or murder is NOT the same as a natural death. Just like your loosing 1000 dollars is NOT the same as someone stealing it.
Nah Guys! Don't even bother to respond to this guy's sad post.
His name is "Subhan Ahsan" and according to his blog he contributes to blogs called "Islamistan" and "desicritics.org".
Desicritics.org has articles such as:
# » Anatomy of the Vadodara Riot
# » Mytoday.com - RSS Aggregation
Some "Hindu" this dude!
My only advice to him is to go to Deoband in UP and try selling his idea of Muslims being Hindu to the fanatics there!
Also, I don't think we should take offence at him calling Hindus Idol-Worshippers.
It is very similar to our ancestors calling the marauding muslim hordes "Maleechas" when they started polluting our landscape.
The difference between Subhan Ahsan (along with the majority of Muslims) and the Hindus is that the Hindus have grown up and don't call them Maleechas anymore but they are still at the same "Marauding Muslim Horde" level (who still think of Hindus as Idol-worshippers).
Not their fault, I don't think their "BOOK" leaves any scope for them to evolve anyway.
just a technical addition to indusaquarius comment about the mlecha
I don't think the word was specifically invented for muslims, or even, as the common belief is , for "foreigners". it may have taken that meaning for a limited space-time later on
In fact Dr Kalyanaraman in his recent writings has argued that Mlecha was the language spoken by the metal workers who are also the same people behind the indus inscriptions
he says that the mention of mlecha as a language in the jadugriha parva of the Mahabharata "vidureNokto mlechchha vAchAsi pANDava" holds a key to unfolding some mystery
u can read about it and some links on my blogpost
http://drisyadrisya.blogspot.com/2006/01/cryptography-in-mahabharata.html
--------------
So that word is nothing compared to the words used and the punishments recommended in "The Book" for being a "non-believer"
What is the significance of the point that
92 per cent of all those committing suicide in Kerala are Hindus. And Kerala has the highest suicide rate in India.
Can you explain as to how this suits the reservation
re. from article:
"Ironically, Nairs got Travancore government jobs a century ago only after an agitation demanding equal rights, because most of those jobs had previously been given to Tamil Brahmins!"
-------- Rajeev,
when tamil brahmins migrated to kerala many years back,
travancore was one of the places they went to.
the raja of travancore was their patron, he gave them food
and shelter. taking care of brahmins was considered
important in those days, becoz they were the ones
that carried the vedic and spiritual knowledge and could
do pujas and homas. in the varna system, the "head" is
more important than hands, body, feet. though all are
necessary.
in the same spirit, i guess later on, they were given priority for jobs.
you have a tendency to show great respect for vedic knowledge, spirituality, temples, tradition etc, and have even gone to the extent of insisting that women should not wear churidars in
temples, they should wear only
sarees, because YOU find churidar unaesthetic). you have also quoted in
some old rediff article, what
sri krishna says about varnas.
but the patronage extended
by the older hindu society to brahmins seems to upset you.
you cant talk out of both
sides of the mouth.
even in the corporate world, the "head" is more important
than the "body", "hands" "legs". so
the CEO is given HIGH priorty and
salary, and worker ants are paid
differently.
this is a NATURAL model,
which even the Gita refers to. this
is how nature organizes.
but your articles seem to
extol the old on one hand, and on
the other hand, you are upset that
brahmins were given greater
importance than others.
_
contd:
the CEO is given HIGH priorty and
salary, and worker ants are paid
differently, because CEO is more
irreplacable and indispensable to
the group.
no surya, you are missing my point.
what you are talking of is the new
social order, based on open
market and the validity of
reservations in this day.
what i am talking of is how rajeev
criticizes actions taken in the
older social order, and the older
society, at the same time he
praises vedic heritage etc etc.
that old society had its own basis
of economics. varna system
operated on whole society as a
group.
overnight, was it reasonable to
expect that system to change ?
another analogy might be queens &
kings continuing in some countries.
not an exact analogy, but similar.
there is queen in england, kings
in some other countries even, with
new political systems.
because the old cannot be wiped out
overnight.
the queen of england to me seems
like she belongs to dinsosaur age
and her country spends so much on
her and her descendants upkeep.
for her country, she means
something, though for us, she
may mean nothing at all.
but old systems cannot and need
not be thrown out overnight. they
can only be phased out over time.
_
i thought that was from surya, or
did i read it wrong, or was i
looking at the name in some other
comment ?
then let me retype - mobiusstrip
instead of surya.
mobius-strip,
re:
"Also in the same analogy you cited markets thrive in competition".
--- that is NOT what I cited! you
missed my point there too. i
think you were rushing to find
meanings that support your own
views :-)
I was saying, that in a set-up
of interdependent people, such
as a bee-hive, or a company,
or the old indian society,
there are the more important
people and the less important,
though all are needed.
the more important persons get
more patronage. gita refers to
such a model.
I was not saying ANYTHING
about markets thriving on
competition. Neither does Gita
refer to competition and free
market systems.
Please dont confuse the two.
Gita is too important a book
to misquote.
_
re:
mobius-strip,
you already stated your viewpoints
somewhere and had your say. if you
DONT care about Gita, why were you
mixing up your comments with mine,
when my post wasnt addressed to
you, nor was my post anything at
all about reservations.
i was writing with specific
reference to Rajeev's comments.
he cares a lot about Gita.
you dont have to reply to my post
to convince me/others of your views
on reservations. dont get mixed up
in a dialogue that has nothing to
do with YOUR views on reservations.
it will only confuse others who are following the thread here.
my post was very very specific.
no need to try to convince me about
your views.
_
Hey Mobis...watever..!!
You are mixing things here. Be specific. I dont understand how reservations create more equality and more opportunities. Reservations as they exist today are out and out caste based. I dont understand how these caste based reservations reduce the divide.
Reservations in any form are no way promote equality. Keep everyting open to anyone. Schools, colleges, universities et all should give admission to the worthy whether they can pay the fee or not. Havent you heard of the story of NR Narayana Murthy ( though I dont like him) who couldnt join an IIT becasue his father was poor. Such people need to be given admission not those who couldnt even count the fingers on a hand.
re. Mobius-strip's comment:
"The main reason for this state of society is caste based social and economic structure that was prevalant in our society long long ago.Education was not for all. Money handling was not for all. Fighting was not for all. People were divided by their profession."
---Well, this is not the whole
truth. Long long long ago,
sociey was meaningfully divided
according to some old wisdom.
social evils eventually came in
due to blind belief.
Anyway, the Mughals and British
reduced the whole of India to
misery and poverty and they
levelled the playing field. in
a miserable way.
So it didnt matter after that
what caste you were. Poverty
hit the majority of people.
Only some people had a lot of
money.
So it is meaningless to talk of
upper-caste having advantages
over lower.
For professional colleges today,
the only reservations that are
meaningful are MERIT + MEANS
based.
Caste-based reservations for
professional colleges/jobs, are
not fair. There are poor in
every caste.
For SC/ST's special help should
be given at the schooling level.
Maybe 100% monetary help.
I come from an "upper-caste"
family whose in whose past
history there was only dire dire
poverty, struggle and toil.
My community does not ask for
reservations.
So sorry guys, no cribbing that
only the SC/ST/OBC have faced
poverty and other castes had all
fair-weather and sunshine. ALL
castes have faced poverty,
thanks to the Mughal invaders
and the lovely British.
_
durva,
appreciate your post. thanks for
writing about things we may not
know about.
reg:
"The ‘Merit’ and ‘Fair-ground’ based arguments are missing the central point. A BC student if scores even 65% marks against all odds... then that BC candidate is as good as or better than an UC candidate who has scored 90% with all the favourable conditions and guidance."
-- brings to mind how a race is
conducted with handicaps when
children of different ages are
in the group --- you put the
tiniest kid a few yards in
front, so he has to run less.
so, wouldn't it make sense to
have a multiplication factor
for OBC marks, to make them all
apples to apples comparison ?
unconditional reservation does
not seem wise. what do you
think ?
your viewpoint is interesting.
_
Subhan,
Get your facts straight before you spout your nonsense again. Hindus comprise just over 55% of total Kerala population, not 90% as you lie. Check here for proof http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Summary%20Hindus.pdf
It is not a one-off case. We knew abt NRN becasue he became famous afterwards. What about others who faced the same problem and sucked into oblivion.
There is this gal from Andhra Pradesh who secured All India 24th Rank in this year's IIT-JEE. He mother is a coolie. They are much much below poverty level. Now, this gal needs to pay around 30K per annum to study in IIT.
Dont you think she needs to be given admission irrespective of whether she pays the fee or not? Or atleast she deserves help from govt?
There are many such cases among all the castes. It is only that we know very little about them.
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